Clock

[md11flyer]

Here is a question that might have been asked before, but I can't remember the answer.
Is a clock officially required to be installed in the aircraft? I have never once looked at my panel mounted analogue clock
except to check that it still works. I realize you must have a reliable time piece on board, but I have several, one on my wrist,
one in the GPS, the fuel minder, the I-phone, the I-pad, etc.
I would like to attach a ram mount pad in that spot, but if the clock has to be there because of certification reasons, then so be it.

Thanks,
Gary

[Charles Schefer]

Gary,

For IFR flight, FAR 91.205(d) requires:

"(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation"

That said... I don't know that it has to be the original piper clock so long as you have an alternate somewhere. My PA-30 has a digital clock in the panel in place of the factory original. I also checked Section 2 of my AFM for the required equipment list and I see no mention of the clock.

So... I think as long as you have some clock somewhere in the aircraft you are OK to not have the original. That's my read anyway.

- Charles

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Gary,
The Comanche is certified by type certificate for VFR day flight; VFR Night and IFR Day and Night only when equipped appropriately.....so with that statement, the aircraft can be flown sans any equipment not required by the FARs for that operation, as long as the required TCDS equipment is installed (as per CAR 3 as that is the certification std for the PA-24/30 series), you are still legal VFR day. I don't know what the rules are in Canada, but I would guess they still go back to the original certification std. as Canada is an ICAO signatory.
-Zach

[md11flyer]

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I checked the Canadian reglations and they also specify for IFR a time piece with a sweep second hand or eqivalent digital clock,must be installed.
That says to me that any other time pieces not installed, ie on my wrist or velcroed to the panel/ control column does not satisfy
the regs. I will keep the clock and stick the ram holder somewhere else.

Gary

[N3322G]

Gary,

If you decide to change the clock, we've been happy with the Davtron - especially for the reset for holds.

[Hank Spellman]

Do the Canadian regulations say "installed" or "aboard"? If "installed", then I would say it means a permanent installation. If "aboard", "available", or some such wording, then your wrist watch should be adequate. You must read the fine print.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman

[Charles Schefer]

I want to revive this thread Gary created almost 2 years back as I am rethinking this topic.

I DO have a digital clock just to the left of my airspeed indicator but similar to Gary's original comment - I rarely use it. In fact I think the ONLY time I ever use it is adjusting the local time between daylight savings and standard every 6 months. When I need a timer I use the count up or count down timer on my Garmin GTX 327 transponder. For holds my Garmin GPS shows a timer for holds. All this said, I don't mind having the clock but I just don't think it's overly useful.

What I do find useful is a good ammeter / volt meter. I think I am going to replace the ammeter I have (perhaps the only "stock" gauge I still have) with a new / modern digital one either from EI or Aerospace Logic. That said, I think I'd rather put that gauge where the clock currently resides so I'd more rapidly notice any problems with the electrical system. I suppose I could move the clock over to the right side where the current ammeter sits but then it would be even less useful.

So is a DEDICATED clock required by the FAA for a US registered aircraft at all? A clock (timer?) is certainly required but does it have to be a dedicated instrument on it's own? I commented earlier in this thread that 14 CFR 91.205(d) requires a clock for IFR flight but... I would think the timers available on the transponder or in the GPS would qualify.

Zach commented that "the aircraft can be flown sans any equipment not required by the FARs for that operation, as long as the required TCDS equipment is installed (as per CAR 3 as that is the certification std for the PA-24/30 series)..."

I have a copy of the TCDS for the PA-30 and I can find no mention of "clock" anywhere in it. There is a statement that says: "The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. In addition, the following items of equipment are required..." (and it goes on to list other things but not "clock").

So I found a copy of CAR3 and searched thru it. I did not find any reference to "clock", "timer", or "second hand".

So.... I am now clear as mud... Do I need to keep the dedicated clock instrument in the 2.25" hole to the left of my airspeed indicator?

Thanks,

- Charles

[Michael Bryant]

Charles,

91.205 lists the instruments and equipment required to be installed in powered aircraft.

Look at it a different way. In addition to the clock, FAR 91.205 also lists artificial horizons, rate of turn indicators, DGs, etc for IFR flight. I doubt you would argue that you could use the artificial horizon or DG that many iPads are capable of displaying as your primary source of that information and that you could remove the artificial horizon or DG installed in the airplane.

My take would be that since the clock is listed as required equipment for the aircraft, you need the clock. Whether you use that clock is entirely up to you.

Michael

[Charles Schefer]

Thanks Michael but I think you are mixing "apples and oranges" as the old saying goes...

Regarding the iPad.. I could not agree more but there is a HUGE difference between an iPad and panel mounted / certificated equipment and I am strictly talking about the later. No... I would not argue an iPad could replace a panel mounted Attitude Indicator but I would argue that an STCed Aspen PFD could and if a second electric attitude indicator (or second Aspen) was also installed the original vacuum instrument could be removed altogether.

I was not asking if a timer on an iPad could be a primary clock, I was asking if the clock in an IFR GPS or certificated transponder (both panel mounted both PMA / STC) could meet the requirement of 91.205(d). That's the real question in my mind. I was never suggesting anything related in a iPad.

Thanks,

- Charles

[MULEFLY]

Charles... greetings.

To really split hairs with you I would suggest that there is a difference between a "clock" and a "timer" and they are not interchangeable.

A phone clearance obtained for a departure with a IFR flight plan from an uncontrolled field usually references... e.g. "if not off before 10 min..." and then refers to the specific time. I think the FAA would want you to have a clock...

JMHO
Jim

[Charles Schefer]

Greetings Jim...

You make a very good point and I think you're right. I hadn't thought about IFR clearance release times. I typically write down the times they give see how many minutes that equates to and start a timer. All that said I think you're right and best case it's a gray area so I think I'll just keep the clock. Maybe I'll replace it with a Davtron model that also displays bus voltage thereby giving me a view of some aspect of the electrical system where I want it.

- Charles

[William Hughes]

I like the original mechanical clock and during my recent panel upgrade I retained it. However, I use other sources for a digital clock with UTC time in it. Having an accurate timestamp in the aircraft that displays glow in the dark UTC time accurate to the second is nice - one less source of IFC error and confusion when I really don't need another set of numbers to juggle in my head. I found an inexpensive digital timer with plenty of aviation functions and stuck it on the panel with a bit of Velcro.

I *have* thought that it would be nice to have a wind-up mechanical clock in case of electrical failure ... I have had the electrical system in another aircraft refuse to work for a few hours. Loose field coil wire. Of course, you will run out fuel long before your several devices with a clock in them run out of battery.

[Charles Schefer]

FWIW I bought a Davtron M803 clock that has OAT and bus Voltage displayed. It's also backlit which is a plus. We are in the middle of another big annual but I'm replacing the existing AtroTech clock with this new Davtron.

As far as a backup goes for power failure, it has a backup battery and I've also got a watch

- Charles