Starter

[Hank Spellman]

Pat,

Almost all engineers have a good sense of humor. The problem is that no one can understand us.

My last semester in undergraduate school, I was dating the girl I eventually married. One Saturday night I took her to a party with a bunch of other engineers and their dates/wives (female engineering students were quite rare in those days). Naturally, we talked shop. The hostess clapped her hands for attention and requested that we keep the shop the shop talk to a minimum because the women could not understand a word of it. The host stood and said, "Guys! Attenuate the shop talk at least 60 db!" (Translation: keep the shop talk down really low.) The ladies had blank looks. The guys all thought it was hilarious.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman

[Hank Spellman]

Andrew,

I have not worked as an engineer for over 40 years, so I don't know much about what devices are in use now. But a simple test is to use an ohm (resistance) meter. Set the scale to 1,000 ohms or so. Touch the leads to each side of the diode. It will show either a high or low resistance, probably full scale. Reverse the leads. It should show the reverse of the first connection. In other words, if the first connections showed high resistance, the second should show low resistance, and vice versa. If it shows high resistance both ways, it is probably burned out. Whatever it shows, ask someone more familiar than I am with what is currently in use before deciding it is bad. There are other combinations of devices that will perform the same function that will not behave as mentioned above.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman

[N3322G]

Hank,

Replied on the Chat Forum at http://www.comancheflyer.com/forum2/vie ... =85&t=7197

[Charles Schefer]

I'm excited to read this thread... my Concorde RG-35AXC arrived Friday and my new Bogurt battery box, battery cables, and Concorde battery adapters should arrive Tuesday. I'm not planning to replace my starters as they seem to be working fine but I can't wait to experience the improved cranking power.

- Charles

[Charles Schefer]

Hello ICS friends!

I'd like to seek some advice on the subject of starters and I thought I'd revive this nearly 2 year old thread vs starting a new one. I've read all the posts here and on a few other threads, and had actually commented on this one back when I did my battery box in May of 2013.

Background: While my 1968 PA-30B has been modernized in many ways, I believe I still have the original starters (Prestolite I've read on the forums) which as I understand it use an old and somewhat complicated mechanical mechanism for engaging and disengaging the starter invented by Mr. Bendix before the advent of electro-mechanical solenoids for the same job (which came about in cars in the 60s but did not make it into our airplanes of the same era).

I've owned the plane for a bit over 2 years now and have had no real problems with the starters except... occasionally (and now becoming more consistently with the last 5-6 starts) I've noticed that if I try to start the right engine first, I hear a "click" as if a relay or solenoid is engaging to send power to the starter but nothing happens. There is no movement of the prop, no starter noise, nothing... So I start the left engine (my normal practice anyway but sometimes I switch it up), and once the left alternator is on and bus voltage goes from 12.x volts to 14.2 volts I then try again and presto! The right engine cranks just fine. The past 5-6 times it's happened the way I just described but on occasion I've also had it happen differently... I've started the left just fine and then nothing on the right... or perhaps I crank it but don't start try again and nothing.... wait 15 seconds and then it works.

Now my problem described above may not be the right starer at all but the solenoid that distributes power to the starters when the switch is pressed. It may be that the right side is sticking and once the left engine has started the higher voltage on the bus plus the vibration from the left engine running is enough to unstick the right side. More investigation to be done. All that said... I'm going to start my annual at the beginning of March and I thought I might as well replace the starters. I thought about doing it back when I did the alternators but elected not to as I felt my starters were working fine at the time.

In looking at the current problem behavior starting and replacing starters two questions I wish to address...
1) Replacement starter model advice / thoughts
2) Aircraft wiring

First starters....
Having read many posts on the forums I am aware that B&C starters are available as are Sky-Tec. I've also seen adds for both in the Flyer but more recently for the Sky-Tec. I've also found on-line Kelly Aerospace E-Drive that may be available (not sure). All this said; I think I will go Sky-Tec because a) they advertise in the Flyer and b) from what I've read they are a straight replacement with no mods to anything required. I read a post about B&Cs requiring some sort of mod to fit in the cowl or similar.

In SkyTec's fit guide -> on page 18-19 it shows that the replacement starter for the PA-30 is the 149-12XLT and for the PA-39 it's the 149-NL on the left engine and the 149-NLR on the right engine. I'd read on this ICS thread -> that Pat has the NL starters on her PA-39 and is happy with them. You can see the various models for Lycoming engines here -> . Decoding the nomenclature... XLT and NL are starter models. The "149" refers to the number of teeth on the engine flywheel that the starter engages with, and the "12" of course refers to 12 volts.

I called Sky-Tec yesterday at 800-476-7896 and spoke to a tech named Rich who was extremely helpful, personable, and interesting to talk to. I was sure to tell him (and others at Sky-Tec I talked to before getting hold of Rich) that I'd seen their ad in the Flyer and if I bought starters would get theirs because of their support for the ICS thru Flyer advertising.

Rich told me that the XLT model is the recommended model for my PA-30. It's their newest and lightest starter at only 6.5 lbs each and Rich described it as the "Ferrari" of their starter models (tho happily it's not their most expensive ). I asked about the NL starter as well and Rich confirmed that could also be used on the PA-30 even tho it's not listed in their fit guide for the PA-30. The reason the NL is listed in their fit guide for the PA-39 he told me is because it's the only starter they offer in a counter-rotating configuration (the NLR for the right engine).

Given the NL and XLT are BOTH options for the PA-30 I pulled the thread further on the pros and cons...

XLT:
- Lightest at only 6.5lbs each
- Spins the prop very quickly (4x faster than stock apparently) - not sure that's an "advantage" per-se
- Requires at least 10v in the battery to work. Smaller starters crank faster and require more draw. Less than 10v and it won't even try he told me.
- Somewhat less tolerant of frequent starts and long cranking
- Less expensive at $359 each

Note: Because of last two bullets - for bush pilots they do not recommend their flyweight XLT starters. He told me if I was buying for a plane in my charter fleet with frequent start duty cycles he'd recommend NL but for my PA-30 as a personal plane he recommended XLT

NL / NLR:
- Slightly more weight at 9.3lbs each vs XLT but still much less weight than stock prestolite
- Does not spin prop as fast as XLT but still faster than stock prestolite (not sure it matters)
- Will start with as little as 7v in the battery
- More tolerant of frequent cycles and will take more abuse than the XLT
- More expensive at $431 each

All the above said I'm torn. I like the idea of minimum weight and I think the XLT would be more reliable and modern that what I have now and for my purposes would be heavy-duty enough so... why spend extra and carry more weight? On the flip side I bought a PA-30 in the first place in part because of the super reliable IO-320-B1A engines and reliability is what I'm usually after. I already have enough useful load for full fuel, my entire family, AND 170 lbs of baggage (more than I can fit) so I'm not critical on weight... so even if 6lbs heavier for 2 the NL may be the better way to go.

I'd appreciate thoughts and feedback, especially from those of you that have NL or XLT Sky-Tec starters. As an aside I'll mention that I have Sky-Tec ST-3 and ST-5 starters in Cirrus charter aircraft and overall they've been good but I did have one ST-5 completely fail out of the blue with no warning. It was replaced under warranty and we had a good customer service experience.

Now on to the subject of wiring...
It's recommended to replace aluminum wiring with copper wiring for newer starters and especially the super light weight ones like the XLT. Rich at Sky-Tec told me that I might get away with Aluminum wiring but Copper was much better. He said the issue with aluminum is not the wires themselves but the crimped terminals at the ends which are copper. The crimps tend to have higher resistance due to galling of dissimilar metals and the fact the aluminum does not crimp well (so he said). Rich also said that they (Sky-Tec) recommend Bogert battery boxes and wiring kits as a first step. Happily I already have a new Bogert battery box with a Concorde RG-35AXC AGM battery which has been awesome. I ordered this with the Bogert Copper Battery cables (but that's just the two leads from the battery box not all the heaving wiring for the whole plane). Last year I added the Plane-Power TAL-12-70 alternators so there's plenty of juice once an engine is running but that doesn't help starting the first engine.

After I bought my plane and had the pre-buy / first annual done I asked about the wiring and was told they thought it was Copper (going from memory). But when we did the battery box we noticed all the existing heavy duty wiring (alternator / starter / GPU connection etc...) looked like it was probably original. By way of example here's a picture...

In the pic above you can see the new battery in the new battery box and new cables coming from the battery. However the rest of the heavy-duty wiring looks original to me (not the lighter wring - most all of that has been replaced including everything behind the panel but the heavy duty wires to / from the battery, starters, alternator, etc...). This original looking wiring almost looks like it's in a woven fabric sheath and stamped on it it says "AL-1". I assume that the "AL" stands for aluminum and I think (looking for verification here) that all the original wiring of this type in our aircraft was in fact aluminum not copper. Also the actual wires under the sheathing look aluminum in color not copper color. However the thing that throws me off slightly is that the metal connectors at the ends of the new Bogert cables is also not copper color it is also whitish aluminum looking metal even tho I know they are copper cables.

Anyway I'm about 95%+ sure that my current alternator and starter cables are aluminum original and I'd appreciate any comments / confirmation on this esp based on the info and picture provided above. If that's the case I think I'll order the full Bogert kit minus the battery cables which I already have. I see Bogert also has an option for slightly longer cables when using the flyweight starters. I've read posts where others installing smaller starters found the wiring a little short so I'll discuss with Bogert to try and avoid that.

So... thanks for reading and sorry for the long post (perhaps typical for me) and I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice on any of this esp regarding experience with NL or XLT starters from Skytec and the wiring...

Thanks,

- Charles

[Timothy Poole]

We replaced the left starter on our PA-30 with a Hartzell X-Drive. I have them on (now) 4 of the aircraft in our fleet with no issues at all. We've had SkyTek on one of the planes and it didn't last as long as the OEM starter it replaced.

I do have a B&C on our DA-20 and can speak very highly of their customer service. We had a kick back a few years ago and sheared the gear shaft off. B&C rebuilt it and overnighted it back for less than a couple hundred bucks instead of having to spend money on an entirely new starter.

Tim

[Charles Schefer]

Thanks Tim. Sounds like X Drive is in fact STCed for PA-30 which is great to hear. I'll look into that option. Which model of Sky-Tec did you have problems with?

[Charles Schefer]

Tim, two quick questions...

1) Do all 4 of the aircraft you have with Hartzel starters have X-Drive or are some E-Drive?

2) On your PA-30 with X-Drive I assume you used model SRZ-9031? Did you find it was a straight bolt up replacement or was any modification to the aircraft required to make figment work?

Thanks,

- Charles

[Charles Schefer]

Anyone else with Sky-Tec, B&C, or X-Drive care to comment? It's great to have so many options but I am now leaning towards doing nothing at all at the annual (unless I do confirm a bad prestolite starter) until I do more research on the best choice.

Thanks,

- Charles

[jeffrey aryan]

Charles,

I have had a B&C starters on Twin for over 20 years and have not had any problems with them. They work, last a long time.

Jeff Aryan

[Charles Schefer]

[N3322G]

Charles,

Absolutely would go to the copper wiring - Mom did this long ago so it has done well for well over 3 decades.

We continue to be happy with our existing Sky-Tecs. No experience with the new stuff so I won't comment.

Did replace the solenoids when access was easy during some repairs - just cause they were original and they were accessible ... and pretty cheap as I recall.

[Charles Schefer]

[N3322G]

Yes, NL and NLR have been on 22G for awhile now. No troubles.

[Charles Schefer]