Stall warning for 1959 180?

[bishopw]

My 1959 180 has a plate riveted over the leading edge opening where one would expect to find a stall detection vane. I have over 500 hours in the plane and have never missed it. However, at my recent BFR, the instructor (about 22 years old!) was horrified by the lack of a stall warning device. So now I'm thinking I should maybe have one. What does everyone think? How big a safety item is this really? I've actually liked not scaring my passengers with a blaring stall horn during landings. If I should have one, are these available as an add-on for the early Comanches?

Warren Bishop
N6245P

[9089P]

Hi Warren,

Zach is the real expert here but I believe on the 180's, at least the early ones, piper made the stall warning optional which says a lot about whether you need one or not. As the bride will confirm, I'm obsessive about everything working all the time, but our stall warning has gone significant periods of time without working. What is a warning light gonna tell you that you don't already know at that point? I'd tell the dude to get a grip.

Good luck, Don

[Kristin Winter]

I have seen early 180's with the stall warning switch covered with a plate.

[John Danish]

I have a '58 180, no stall warning, Piper realized the thing shook so hard before stall, make it optional. I have the wing unit if you are interested in finding the rest. It is not on my original equipment list, so not necessary.
jdanish ics#202

[bishopw]

I am not really inclined to go to the trouble and expense of putting in a stall warning. I've never missed it. On the other hand, I have never seen a later model airplane without one, so there must be some potential safety advantage. When practicing stalls at altitude in the Comanche, I actually don't notice much buffet at all, and when the stall finally comes, it is far more gentle than in the Cessnas I trained in. The Comanche just gets mushy and sinks, whereas the 150's and 172's really shake and then drop. Perhaps it is this gentle stall behavior that is the reason?

[John Danish]

Personal preference, I don't need it,personally, as a CFII, I teach recognition, not stalls. I believe stall in departure or approach is not recoverable. I know this is going to open a line of discussion, but after 3000+hrs in a PA-24, I pretty sure I am right. As in the JFK accident, he had to hear the stall warning at some point? Just before the 1 1/2 turns into the water.....................
jdanish

[Jay]

When the PA24-180 was certified, the requirement was for the stall to be easily recognizable, whether by aerodynamic feedback or a warning. There is no requirement for a 180 to have one. If you were going to put something like that on anyway an angle of attack indicator would be more useful.

On the JFK Jr. crash, the evidence is that he didn't stall and spin, it was the graveyard spiral that got him.

Jay

[John Danish]

And the resulting difference?
jdanish

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

No artificial stall warning device was required on the 180's. I believe the cutoff at the time was for high performance/multi engine aircraft, thus the stall warning on the 250's, but none were installed on the 180's as std, but some aircraft had them from the factory because the plane was supposed to be a 250 build. Just an added bonus. No stall warning required on a Cub either...but you instructor probably hasn't seen the inside of a Cub. I can see the CFI/Student conversation:

"Where's the radio...and the GPS...?? You cant fly an airplane without talking on the radio and pushing the Direct To button and following a magenta line! Thats unsafe, flying with the door open and no headset with just a map under your butt to find your way, and from the BACK SEAT too...and you need to use the prop to start it...oh my, you surely don't want to get a signature from me, you are demonstrating all kinds of bad judgement here...."

And so it goes...the problems with instruction today wrapped up in a hypothetical onesided conversation....

-Zach

[John Danish]

Zach, I can add a Cessna 150 to that list, hardest airplane I ever flew, or instructed in........let go of it, went anywhere it felt like. Let go of my 180 and it flies on.
jdanish

[Jay]

[John Danish]

As I said, the results were the same: spin, spiral, no recovery, same ending. An instrument rating would have fixed either condition.
jd

[Eastern]