Fleet Airworthiness Steering Committee

[jeffrey aryan]

To Bruce, BOD's and All,

What a great idea Kristin has put forth.

Everyone resign after the San Diego convention and your problems would be over, gone, kaput. Everyone could then sit back relax and enjoy the show.

What would it hurt ? You wouldn't have to take calls at all hours of the day, people wouldn't be mad at you. You wouldn't have to worry about liability issues. You could spend more time with loved ones, your plane, etc.

If you guys don't like what see then run for office again and start over. Try it, you might like it.

Regards,

Jeff Aryan

[AlanBreen]

I am an interested ICS member who lives about as far away as anyone can be from the centre of ICS politics, I don't know many of the people running ICS and of those that I do know I can't say I know them all that well.

So I guess that in some ways qualifies me to be a little objective in my comments here.

Over the years there have been "uprisings" within the organisation, the first I remember was when Larry Rackley was the President. There were changes made, among them the setting up of this website, something that was long overdue. In my opinion ICS has not fully embraced the advantages of electronic communication and made the best use of this site. Yes, Dave has done a great job but there more than could be done

Now there is another potential "uprising" as I see it. ICS needs to provide more/better technical support for the members. I don't think that anyone disagrees with this, the disagreement is on how to achieve this. All the while nothing is happening.

I have met Bruce Thurman and think he is a good genuine person, the fact that he has been prepared to debate the issues on here in the manner he has proves that.

I don't know Scott but I have met Kristen and I see her as a no nonsense person with good ideas. Reading the posts on here I certainly get the impression that Scot and Kristen didn't get a fair hearing at the board meeting. That is a shame.

The board seem to be paralysed, too scared to do something in case it fails. Well the way I see it, doing nothing is doomed to failure.

Bruce, is there any chance that the board would survey the members to see what support there is for what Kristen and Scott suggested, perhaps with changes ? Will they accept the "Flyer" being published less often? Will they pay a bit more? How much more? in return for good type support.

By survey I don't mean something in the "Flyer", that would take too long, and I suspect many would not respond. I mean each Tribe Chief contacting each member and getting feedback, or an email to each member with some facts and figures and some options. Then the board has something to make a decision on rather than going on heresay that members will not renew etc as has been quoted.

I know email will not work for everyone but we must start embracing new technology to improve ICS. For those without email perhaps a phone call from the Tribe Chief.

This Type Support issue has been talked about for long enough, we need to start making some concrete progress.

[Trevor Laundy]

[tomburke1]

[Ben Ayalon]

Unfortunately I have missed the board meeting due to poor Skype connection, hence, I read all the posts and it seems that we all agree about the need to look forward. We also agree that we can not have the Flyer and the extra type support that we know that is required, this is due to lack of funds. We agree that we don’t know how many members will depart if we drop the magazine and we also don’t know how many will join when/if we provide the enhanced type support. However, we know two things.
1. If we abolish the Flyer all together we will save money as the portion that is being covered by the members dues will be retained by the ICS.
2. We can not reduce the circulation to a quarterly because the advertising revenue will go down by more that the total cost of the magazine which will require higher portion of our dues to cover the gap.

Although I recognise the limitations of the magazine I personally don’t want to see the magazine being abolished, at least not just yet, I think that we still need it and this is for 2 reasons.
1. Call me an ‘old geezer’ (I am still a babe in compression to many ) but I value the printed paper.
2. I guess it here so might be wrong but I have the felling that not all tribe chiefs publish regular newsletters to their members. In cases like this the magazine is the only link of the members to the ICS as many do not frequent the forums or the ICS website.
3. An electronic magazine will also cost money but we do not know how much.

Many members take what we do for granted and leave it to us to run, as they say “we voted you in because we think that you can do it right, well, really no one else wanted the headache”. Two weeks ago I asked my tribe members for their opinion about the subject of enhance tech support, only 3 members responded, a very poor show.

After making all the reading my conclusions are:
1. We still do not have enough information to base an operative decision. We need to dig a bit deeper so we gain more knowledge and understanding.
2. We have to ask the membership what do they want. This can be done electronically for fast response. We should seek for at least 75% participation if we want to have any meaningful result.

After making all the reading my conclusions are:
1. We still do not have enough information to base a decision upon. We need to dig a bit deeper so we gain more knowledge and understanding.
2. We have to ask the membership what do they want. This can be done electronically for fast response. We should seek for at least 75% participation if we want to have any meaningful result.

Yet, this has to be done as soon as we can because time is against us. If ICS wants to remain meaningful then ICS must come out on top, falling that a new type club will be formed. This type club will compete and eventually will cause to the demise of ICS. Current owners and future owners do need and will need the support and they will choose the one that will provide it. I would like to see ICS doing it. In case of poor members participation the board will have to make hard decisions such as increasing dues, no magazine, two tear membership levels…

The following is a post by John Rebourn, I think that it contain some good points and maybe we will be able to use some of them in future plans. With John’s permission I post it below.

Ben

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If we had 100 people willing to send in a one time fee of $1000.00 it would be a start. 200 people $500.00. etc..
Out of 4000 Comanche's there has to be 200 people who would see the value of this kind of operation.
Yearly dues. How much? Pays for someone to manage the club and distribute tech information.
To access the information there would be a charge to non members, such as mechanics looking for information to do annuals who would then pass on the expense to the plane owner on his bill. What that amount would be determined at a later date.
Profit from the venture would go to buying STC's. How was it the Austrialian Tribe designs a new trunion? If they can do it a new USA club can do it. We are way behind schedule. Other clubs have done it. What has ICS done to keep up for the benifit of their members?
Profit from venture would go towards dividends to club members.
If no profit then raise the dues.
Only so many shares are available.
One share per member.
Members don't give out free information. Encourage people seeking information to call club headquarters.
When a member leaves he is refunded his cost of the share.
Money in reserve is invested in some type of income bearing account.
Distribution of shares can only go to individuals. Not commercial interprises.
It might take a year or two to get people on board but it's a start and as long as there are Comanche's there will be a need for this information.
There must be 100's if not thousands of Comanches being worked on by mechanics that have no experience with Comanche's that would need or want access the information that this new club would have. Thus constant sourse of income. How much? Don't know.
If a non member needs to talk to one of the clubs designated tech reps. A charge of X amount for that persons time and knowledge.
For years every time I read some valuable information such as where to access parts that I read on either site I write it down on a piece of paper and put it in a note book.
Can you imagine how great it would be if someone wants to know as new plane owners always do want to know about where to buy something, what product members say works and which ones don't.
But the way it works now is that everytime someone wants to know something about a product he posts and waits for members to answer him.
I would be great if as a paying member you and your mechanic have immediate access to this information.
Like a Tips Book but only to parts and vendors who are in good standing with the services they provide. Like for Servo repairs, Prop govenors etc.
If you are a member and need services or parts maybe the vendors, FBO's that specialize in Comanches who would be recommended by the club to plane owners and their mechanics would recieve a discount on parts and labor. One of the incentives of being a member. How much of a discount? Don't know.
Will there there ever be any profit? Depends on overhead and the sevices this new club could provide members and if the members feels as if these services are worthy of the investment.
Knowledge is valuable. You're an attorney. Your meter is running when you're on the phone discussing a case with a client or on the behalf of a client. Income for the club could be run the same way. You already know how to do this. Someone calls, is not a member (because all the shares were bought by smart people who get instant access to valueable records and vendor lists, etc.) first thing you ask for once you assure them you have this valuable information is their credit card number and the 3 digit access number on the back.
We members would choose (vote) who would be the tech reps.
No mailings, all documents and information done via computer.
Obtain the FAA data for the names of Comanche owners, send them a flyer on services and benefits of this new club.
Money sent in from member want to be's is held securely and if it is decided that not enough want to make this happen then their money is refunded. Pick a time frame of 2 years to get this together.
Those of us years from now that have maintained our planes by the use of this valuable service will be rewarded with higher prices come resale time.
Just my thoughts. Am I dreaming? Who knows? I'll send in the price of a fill up which comes to approx $500.00. Keeping my plane flying with all the best available information at my finger tips is worth the price of a fill up.
John Rabourn

[Kristin Winter]

Tom,

If you limit your view of type support to answering members questions then ICS does a pretty good job. But the problems are getting bigger, and the gurus are getting older. If the FAA adopts SB 1189 as written and makes it an AD, you will see grounded airplanes. If that doesn't happened, it will be because of Hans, Denny, and Eric.

Now we are finding a significant number of single Comanches with cracks in the rudder spar. The only approved repair is to replace the rudder spar. There needs to be a repair that is more cost effective. The issues are beginning to accelerate. Type support must accelerate to keep pace.

[Kristin Winter]

Ben,

>>We can not reduce the circulation to a quarterly because the advertising revenue will go down by more that the total cost of the magazine which will require higher portion of our dues to cover the gap.<<

Where did you get this "fact"? Further, the advertising revenue does not cover the cost of the magazine. It only offsets it somewhat.

Some advertisers do not need to advertise to Comanches, such as Aircraft Spruce. (My guess is that VP sells AS a package from which ICS only sees a small amount) Others, like Webco, Lopresti, etc., don't advertise as a favor to ICS; they do it because they need to reach Comanche owners. They are likely to continue to advertise.

Incremental changes toward a defined goal allow for optimization by making adjustments. This is elementary. The problem here is the rejection of any significant change such that will ever free up the money to make any type support improvements.

[Ben Ayalon]

Kristin
The advertisers pay $X per advert, if they advertise in 12 issues we get 12X, if they advertise in 4 issues we will get 4X. This is a drop of 66% in advertising revenue. I can’t see Village press reducing our costs by 66%. Hence in such a case we will have to divert more of the membership dues towards the magazine. Without real numbers it is impossible to know whether we will have to ‘sponsor’, in real terms, higher sums or not. In any case this has to be investigated.

Tom
What Kristin said. As you know my rudder is cracked, the only repair is with new parts, dabbler is not allowed and will be deemed as an ‘illegal repair’. We will face more of the same in the future, to avoid it we need to start and develop ‘approved procedures’. I think that we should get involve with producing parts by supporting manufacturers to obtain STCs and PMAs, in return ICS members should pay X and non members pay X+20% while ICS should get 5%, 10% or whatever as a kick back from the vendors. Also, ICS will have to protect its future rights in case the STC is being sold. Things will get more ‘interesting’ in the future and we have to be ready.

Ben

[Trevor Laundy]

[tomburke1]

[Scott Ducey]

[Bruce Thumann]

[Kristin Winter]

[jeffrey aryan]

[Ben Ayalon]