AFMS - S-Tec 60

[Richard Lanning]

I am really learning alot of things I never knew before I bought a plane.

I am working on all the paperwork on my plane and have discovered I do not have an AFMS for my S-Tec 60. I discovered I had an AFMS for a G500. One problem, I own a 430W. Fortunately, I was able to get the AFMS from the avionics shop that installed the 430 quickly and easily.

The S-Tec was installed by a shop that has long since disappeared. This one may be a little harder to come by.

If the AFMS for the S-Tec is anything like the 430W AFMS it is nothing more than about 20 pages of photocopied material. Any chance anyone has a copy they can make for me?

I am new to this AFMS stuff. What other systems might require an AFMS?

[N3322G]

Have you tried the Mfg website? - we've found a lot of things there for other systems.

[Charles Schefer]

[JMH23]

Richard,
Trythis link

http://www.s-tec.com/Documentation/Shar ... oks%20(POH)/Sys_60-2_POH_(3rd_ed).pdf


Joe Hand
N9023P

[Richard Lanning]

Thanks but unfortunately S-Tec only posts the POH, not the POH supplements. The supplements are aircraft type specific.

I reached out to S-Tec and they referred me to their dealers who so far want to charge a rather large sum of money for what I am pretty sure if it is like the 430W supplement, just a couple dozen pages of photocopied material. Unfortunately, these supplements are required to be in the aircraft. Which also has me concerned as to what other systems in my aircraft may require a supplement.

The supplements may place restrictions on what you can and cannot do with the installed equipment. Case in point is using an expired database in your GPS for IFR operations. The FAA actually allows this only if it is permitted by the AFMS.

[Charles Schefer]

Richard,

I've seen cases where equipment manufacturers do supply an Airplane Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) that is inserted into Section 9 of the aircraft's AFM / POH but more typically I've seen separate booklets that are the required supplements for the new equipment that must be carried aboard. I keep all those in a pouch with my AFM. I think most of the separate booklets I am referring to would be found on manufacturer's websites as Pat has pointed out.

The other thing would be STC paperwork which goes in the maintenance records but in some cases has instructions or things the pilot must pay attention to in which case there are papers (or a copy) that must go in or with the AFM.

Others may have contradictory knowledge or advice on this but this is to the best of my knowledge. I've had conversations with the Washington FSDO that oversees my Part 135 charter certificate regarding documentation and supplements we must carry aboard our charter aircraft and what I've written above is based on what I gained from those conversations. That said I may have something to learn here.... as Mark Twain said; "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

- Charles

PS - If S-Tec does in fact claim you should have some AFMS papers with your Comanche POH and they want to sell those to you... I'd make sure you have a good idea of what it is you are buying. There are many other Comanche owner's with S-Tec autopilots from the System 30 all the way up to the 55X. I'd check with some of them to see if they have such paperwork in their aircraft. Any such paperwork may in fact be generic and cover all S-Tec units not just a specific model (just a thought). I don't have an S-Tec in my Comanche but our Charter Cirrus does have an S-Tec 55X. Later today I'll be at the hangar and I'll look through the Cirrus supplements to see what I can find that might be helpful - at least a clue to what you should have (if anything). Can other Comanche owners with S-Tec autopilots chime in here?

[Richard Lanning]

Thanks. I suspect it is model specific. I have the S-Tec 60, three axis with VS control. I know it is aircraft type specific though that is not to say the same documentation can't apply to multiple aircraft types.

There is actually useful information in the supplements. At least I found this true for the GPS supplement.

S-Tec wants $200 for the supplement. This seems a bit excessive, especially if it is only 20 or so pages of photocopied material which is what my GPS 430w supplement is.

Even if I have the wrong document in the plane I guess it is better than nothing. Maybe the FAA will give me partial credit. The previous owner had the wrong AFMS for the GPS in my plane for many years.

I'm still concerned if there are other AFMS that I should have in the plane.

[Charles Schefer]

There are a number of pages in Section 9 of the Cirrus AFM that deal with the 55X (pic below). But note that these pages are published from Cirrus, perhaps in collaboration with S-Tec. The only thing else aboard are the Avidyne, Garmin, and S-Tec booklets (the kinds of things you can download from their websites). There's nothing else and that's how it came from he Cirrus factory. I would guess the pages added to Section 9 seen below count as the AFMS you are referring to.

It's interesting; for my PA-30 I have many supplements. I would have said they are / were complete. Some are a few pages and some are entire booklets (like the user guide on my Garmin 480) but I can't say I have groupings of pages to be added to AFM Section 9 for everything. For the 480 I have the user guide but no separate bunch of pages like you're describing. Perhaps I am missing something. I think I'll call Garmin.

- Charles

[Charles Schefer]

Looking further... when I first got the plane I went to all the websites of all the equipment manufacturers and downloaded everything they offered. For my Garmin 480 Garmin posted a "GNS480 Fixed Wing STC ICA RevF.pdf" which is still out there on their site even now. Just as you described it's about 9 pages. I have this but I don't recall printing it and putting it in the aircraft with the AFM. Perhaps I need to do that.

- Charles

[N3322G]

Charles,

Whoever installed the equipment is theoretically responsible for supplying the documents. Our experience was the avionics shop did not do this, selected the incorrect options when we did show them the paperwork and even though certified at the highest level by Garmin, did not do the complete job. Being retired computer industry folks, we know the value of complete and accurate documentation at install time, so we did it. As the owner, I know I'm responsible anyway:-)

[Charles Schefer]

Thanks Pat. Yes I realize I'm responsible as the owner and have gone to great lengths to ensure everything is in order (you should see the AD and maintenance tracking system I've developed). I spent quite a bit of time researching and reorganizing the maintenance records as well as the in-aircraft documentation. In this case I think I'm carrying the wrong thing aboard for the GNS-480 and I'll correct that. First I want to verify with Garmin and I may have another chat with my PMI at the Wash FSDO.

- Charles

PS - I'm from the IT industry also

[Richard Lanning]

Charles

The STC that you refer to for the Garmin is not the AFM supplement. Garmin does not post the supplements. They are supposed to be supplied by whoever installed the equipment. The Cirrus example provided above is a good example. In this case the equipment was installed at the Cirrus factory. I see this with the G1000 airplanes I fly, the supplement is part of the POH and incorporated at the factory. It also reinforces the fact that the supplements are type specific.

The GPS supplement is where you actually can determine if you can use your GPS with an expired database. Many believe erroneously that this is allowed by the FAA. It is not a blanket permission. The FAA allows it only if the GPS supplement allows it.

Supplements are typically found in Section 9 of a POH. For our older planes, they are usually stapled to the front or back cover of the POH.

If you have tip tanks installed even these require an AFM/POH supplement.

I am also trying to get a handle on my ADs and Piper Service Bulletins. This is not an easy process I am quickly learning. Many Service Bulletins and Service Letters do not appear to be available anymore.

I did just find an S-Tec 60 AFMS for a C182. As I suspected, it is only 17 pages long and photocopied just like my GPS AFMS. I have a copy of it if anyone is interested. It is too big to upload to this site. If it just said Piper Comanche and 12 volt system on the cover sheet it would be perfect.

[JIMICS2452]

Charles,
Check out the GNS480 User Group on Yahoo. I think the AFM can be found there. Also try Google for it.

Jim Hiatt

[Richard Lanning]

Charles

The two things you will need in your aircraft is the AFM supplement and most avionics supplements will then say you need the operating manual for the device as well in the aircraft.

I plan on installing a bookcase in the back of my plane.

I compressed the AFMS for a Cessna with an STEC 60 and have uploaded for anyone interested in seeing a complete AFMS. Hopefully, someone will recognize this and be able to provide me a copy for my Comanche. I suspect it will be identical to this other than the picture of the yoke and switches.

[Charles Schefer]

Richard / Jim - Thanks for these insights. I DO have the User Guide and the Pilot Quick Reference guide for my Garmin 480. I can't say that I have a supplement similar to what Richard posted for the C-182 / S-TEC 60-2. Yes I am very familiar with Section 9 being the supplements section in the standard chapter structure of an AFM and yes I know (and referenced the fact) that Cirrus (for example) provided the S-TEC supplement as factory provided in the example I posted.

I do have some of the Supplements you reference for much of the non-OEM equipment I have installed but I don't recall seeing anything but the Pilots User Guide in the case of the 480. Sounds like I need to find this. I'm probably going to be at the hangar this afternoon and this thread has prompted me to re-check what I do (and don't have) - exactly.

I recently converted from the original Factory AFM / POH (which is complete with all supplements - no I don't have the tip tanks they are marked not installed but I do have that supplement) to the ICS AFM I purchased thru Webco.

Jim - I am not a member of the Yahoo user's forum and frankly don't want to sign up with Yahoo just to do that but I'll search around and see if I can find it elsewhere.

Richard - Kristen Winter has a copy of ALL Piper SBs new and old. She shared them with me - it's a BIG file. If you email me at charles dot schefer at gmail dot com I will send you an invite to a dropbox folder where you can download them. I also have copies of ALL ADs but I have a twin and I think you want single. Easy to download from the FAA site and the ICS also maintains lists on the main ICS site.

I'll double check what I have on-board and report back...

- Charles