Need LH Main Gear Door

[Ed Asmus]

Charles, are you able to post a "guesstimate" as to how much you invested to have all those landing gear components refinished? I live a few miles from Cliff's shop at Heritage Aero in Rockford, IL and am contemplating turning our 1959 250 over to him to comply with all gear AD's and making the gear "new." Thanks for your posts!

Ed

[Charles Schefer]

Pat - those are fair comments / good points.

Ed - First off let me say you can't go wrong with Cliff and Heritage and I am envious that you live close to RFD. Regarding cost - that's a difficult question (and one my wife keeps asking me which I am avoiding - ha!). I had Cliff do the "main" 1000hr gear AD. By that I mean AD 77-13-21 which involves checking all the tolerances of all the bushings. Cliff and his team did this in about 12hrs which is a credit to his efficiency because having now disassembled the gear and re-done the AD (it's apart so why not) I took me (and my IA) a lot more time - of course we are doing a restoration and much more. I did not have Cliff do the other 1000hr gear AD on the side brace studs because it had been done only 400hrs earlier. I have now redone that one too (AD 79-01-01 R1) by having the studs magnafluxed (before cad plating) so that both ADs are "rebaselined" now and good for another 1000hrs. I personally have come to believe completely disassembling the gear - while a huge effort - is the only way to go. Cliff also installed a new Dukes transmission in my gear and the Webco push-pull conduits and Matt Kurkes complete gear wiring kits. I spent about $25K at Cliff's shop but that was also for the annual and there were many other upgrades outside the gear including new STCed Aux Fuel pumps among other things. I think the gear was at least $10K of the whole exercise maybe more.

Cliff told me that one weak spot on my plane was the paint work (or lack there of) in the gear wells. While I had him make the gear mechanically perfect, it was not aesthetically perfect (or protected) and that bothered me so that is what I set out to correct now. The other day Cliff told me they can easily get 100hrs in doing a complete gear refurbish and again - I personally think that is a conservative estimate. I took my plane down for annual on Jan 2 and more than 50% of the time since then has been the gear (we have not been working on it every day but many many late nights). I have talked to Matt Kurke many times as I am trying to emulate what he did more or less. Matt said it takes a solid month and I think that's about right.

The shop in MD is charging me about $1K for all the aluminum refinishing and the materials for the gear wells (I just got home from the hangar having finished the alodine phase in the empty gear wells - ugh thats' a nasty process). I expect the cad plating and powdercoating of the steel parts to run $500 - $600. By the way it's very hard to find actual cad plating. I found it in Newport News (where I am having it done and drove all the parts there) but the EPA is phasing it out due to the heavy use of cyanide and hexavalent chromium in the plating process (both very bad) but cad is much more durable than zinc plating which is the alternative. However you are in luck... one of the first groups I talked to who DO actual Cad plating are right there at RFD. Their website is http://www.chemprocessing.com/finishes/ ... ating.html

I also have a pro painter helping me finish the empty gear wells this weekend (prime and paint Sunday is the plan). With all that and the labor of my IA helping me through the whole thing I've probably got another $10K in the gear and other stuff. It may be overkill but I really want the gear to be PERFECT. My dad always told me "perfect is the enemy of good" but it's a lesson I've never really been able to learn.

I'd recommend you talk to Cliff about options. He's told me there's a very good paint shop there at RFD that can refinish gear in place. Personally I think taking it all apart get the best result but... it does come at a price. On the positive side I have learned a TON about the gear system and have a whole new appreciation for it.

I'm not sure I really answered your question precisely. The problem pricing out the gear itself is that each stage I have done other things in addition to the gear so it's difficult to itemize. Also I've got added cost by doing alot of the stuff 2X (between Cliff doing it all 100hrs ago and my IA and I doing it all again and then some.

Final comment... I'd suggest you have Cliff take everything apart, check the transmission and do all the ADs. Have all the aluminum bits sent to the paint shop there at RFD that Cliff likes. Have all the steel sent to the cad place there at RFD, install Kurkes' gear wiring kits and the Webco push pulls. Expect that Cliff will find other stuff that needs doing having such a close look. I am guessing all this will run $10-15K depending how much you do but that is a real swag.

Hope this helps,

- Charles

[Ed Asmus]

Thank you Charles and yes this was very helpful and your numbers do not surprise me at all. I am struggling somewhat with how to handle this airplane. The airplane in question is the one advertised for sale on this forum under "want to sell," N5391P. The airplane actually is owned by a long time friend of mine and he has ceased flying. The airplane has been for sale for nearly a year now with almost zero interest. I love flying the airplane and have put about 50 hours on it in the last year but all these AD's are coming due and I am not one to skimp on maintenance. I own and fly a C337 which I also love. My buddy has basically given me the airplane to use to my hearts content but the deal is I gotta maintain it, which is certainly fair. Everything is due in about 50 hours so I probably have another year to decide but the annual is due this month soooo, I can either get started on the project now or procrastinate for one more year. We'll see what happens but anyway, I certainly appreciate your detailed response!

Thanks, Ed

[MULEFLY]

Ed... I suggest you speak again with Cliff. I had a single that I sold in 2005.. I realized that the 1000 hour gear AD had been pencil whipped previously and as it was almost due, I wanted it fully complied with as I wanted to sell it in good faith. Cliff was not my mechanic at that time, but another well known mid-west Piper IA performed the work. I didn't even ask them to use gages... we replaced all of the bushings, reamed as required and all new hardware. IIRC correctly, the parts were about $2K... from Webco. The work was performed in conjunction with an annual and I don't remember how many hours were required to comply with the gear AD. I had previously done the cables so that expense was not incurred at that time.

Now, if you want to strip and paint the wheel wells and get obsessive compulsive about it... yes, you can spend a great deal of time and money. Matt's airplane is beautiful, but I fly my airplane in the rain and I want it functional, mechanically perfect, and I don't want to feel guilty if I get it wet or there is a drop or two of mud in a wheel well. It doesn't have to be a 10 out of 10... 8 is good. Going from an 8 to a 10 is exponentially more expensive. (BTW I do have Cliff replace bungees annually, so I'm not being cheap here... trying to be mechanically perfect, and aesthetically proud, but again not compulsive.)

All the best!
Jim

[Ed Asmus]

Hi Jim and thanks for your response.

I have corresponded with Cliff through email though I have never met him. His responses were prompt and helpful. My knowledge of Cliff and Heritage Aero has all been through the ICS. Clearly Cliff and his crew are extremely well respected by all the folks in the ICS who rave about their work. The fact that our Comanche is a mere 15NM from Cliff's shop certainly makes this option appealing. When the time comes to do the gear and the horn AD, I'm fairly certain the airplane will end up there. The reality is that "legally" neither AD is due for another 50 hours, which equates to another year of flying most likely. As for the horn AD, I am very confident that the existing horn, torque tube, and associated bearings are in good shape. My buddy and his IA disassembled the tail about 5 years ago to comply with SB 1160 (SB 1189 did not exist at the time). They had the foresight to not only follow the instructions in SB 1160 but to also do a dye pen inspection on the horn which proved to be in good shape at that time. So flying another 50 hours on the existing horn does not seem unreasonable to me.

As for the gear, the log books indicate that the 1000 hour AD has been complied with twice previously, the last time being 950 hours ago though also 20 years ago. As for the side brace stud AD, that was complied with once before, but also many years ago. So needless to say my confidence in the gear is lower than the tail. The IA who has maintained the airplane for the last 13 years is in Minnesota, which is where the airplane lived until a year ago, and keeps telling us that the gear is fine and not to worry until the AD is due. They did replace the gear motor and install the heavy wall bungee arms and have done an inspection and lubrication at each annual. I can say the gear works as designed. It operates very smoothly in both directions and has never given the slightest hint of a problem. If we take the airplane back to Minnesota for the annual this month (which is appearing more likely at the moment), unless the routine gear inspection turns up signs of distress, I am confident the IA will sign off the gear for its remaining 50 hours. So as I mentioned in my previous post, I have a dilemma. My friends desire is to sell the airplane, my desire is to have the gear disassembled. I hate to invest a boat load in the gear unless the airplane is going to stay around for awhile. Obviously, I am not going to operate an airplane if I truly believe something is unsafe, but what I am trying to decide is if my concerns of the gear are justified. I am not a mechanic (though I study a bunch), but when the books indicate twice compliance, and the IA (who seems like a straight up guy) says "go fly", and the gear seems functionally correct, those seem like reasonable signs to fly off the next 50 hours and deal with the tail and gear when the AD forces the issue. So as I mentioned in my previous post, stay tuned and we'll see how it plays out.

The truly ironic thing is that anyone who knows me knows I am not too emotional of a guy but as I said earlier, I own a C337 for the last dozen years which I absolutely LOVE and I have also truly come to LOVE flying this Comanche. If I want to continue flying both these planes, I gotta keep em maintained. That ain't gonna be cheap. This airplane stuff sure is fun though! It'll all work out!

Thanks again to both of you Jim and Charles for your input!

Ed

[MULEFLY]

So take it to Cliff..have him complete the annual in 4 days or so... (he may do it quicker if his shop load allows) and then do the gear AD next year... "tastes great... less filling...".


Jim

[Charles Schefer]

Ed,

Seeing as you don't technically own the plane (seems like you do in a practical sense but it sounds like it's not legally yours) then I'd agree with Jim 100%. I wouldn't put a ton of $ into it unless you own it. Keeping the maintenance up as you do and have promised the owner seems fair and makes sense. Jim is also correct in referring to the Pareto rule (Jim didn't reference Pareto but that's what it is) better know as the old "80/20 rule". You can get 80% of the way in 20% of the cost and the last 20% costs exponentially more - that's absolutely right.

I would agree with anyone who argued I am going a bit overboard with my gear but that's ok. I am 43 years old and hope to have many, many good flying years ahead of me and I'd like the plane to outlast me. To me this is not just about aesthetics (though that is I admit part of it) but preserving it for longevity. While aluminum is not prone to corrosion the way steel is, it can oxidize and part of the gear is steel. Where the steel and aluminum contact galling can result. Clean, well preserved gear is easier to inspect and service. My #1 goal in this exercise is preserving the aircraft for the long haul. Aesthetics is an important but secondary goal.

Like Jim I also fly in rain (I fly Part 135 charter - not in the Comanche but I do fly the Comanche in weather). I fully expect the gear will get dirty, but they will clean easily and be preserved for the long haul.

I'd talk to Cliff. He's close to you and there is no substitute for experience (which he has in volumes when it comes to our Comanches). You could comply with the gear ADs without doing all the other stuff and that would not cost an arm and leg. I'd talk to Cliff - maybe take the plane for him to look at and go from there.

BTW - I think Cessna 337s are really neat. I assume you've seen the movie Bat 21 with Gene Hackman and Danny Glover? If not you should as a C337 takes center stage. I sometimes fly a friend's Cessna 340A which I like a lot but I prefer the PA-30s fuel efficiency. I seriously considered a 337 before looking at PA-30s.

Good Luck,

- Charles

[Ed Asmus]

I have a copy of the movie sitting on my shelf, VHS no less. That's how long I have had it! ;o)

You do understand correctly Charles, the Comanche is not mine. The SkyMaster is the plane I own. My buddy decided a little over a year ago to cease flying (medical concerns and constant job demands) and put the plane for sale. In the mean time he moved it from Minnesota so it would be closer to me so I could fly it. If I stop flying it (which is certainly an option), the plane will sit in the hanger and die. I hate to let that happen.

Thanks for the advice and I will keep it all in mind.

Ed

[Charles Schefer]

That would be a shame Ed (to let it "die" in a hangar). That said I'd have a hard time pouring a ton of $ into a plane that wasn't mine. If you really are interested in restoring it or at least putting $ into it to improve it maybe you should try to buy it from the owner and then do that. Or maybe focus on your Skymaster... I know one plane keeps be busy enough and is enough of a pocketbook drain. I can't imagine two!

Good luck,

- Charles

PS - I've got a few VHS tapes lying around as well but nothing to play them. A few years back I gave my last VHS player away.

[Ed Asmus]

I actually just replaced my VCR with one from the local Goodwill store as my previous one quit. I needed something to play all my Maurice Taylor Comanche videos. It cost a whopping $2.75. What a bargain! )

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Ed,
Any Comanche savvy mechanic can probably give you a pretty good assessment on the condition of the gear with it just sitting on the ramp, and an even better one in as little time as it takes to jack it up, spend 10 minutes on jacks, and drop it down again. If you are 15 minutes from Cliff, give him a call and ask if he would take a look at the gear and then fly it over to him if you are worried. It is easy, and non intrusive, but the result of not having a good solid gear could kill the plane as quickly as leaving it die in the hangar. Unless you are over insured, gear ups/collapses will result in a totaled aircraft, especially in twins. It is just too expensive for the insurance companies to fix, and it is cheaper for them to hand you a check, and sell all the parts and make their money back! Just my two cents worth....
-Zach

[Ed Asmus]

Thanks Zach,

Common sense has prevailed. The airplane is scheduled to go to Cliff's shop on Monday March 17. It's a bummer I don't own the plane but I just don't want to own two. But I do want to fly this plane and if I'm flying it, I need to know I am doing my part in keeping it maintained. Gosh I wish I was a super experienced mechanic. I enjoy these old planes but the older they and I get, the more I need to know about what the heck is going on inside of them.

Thanks

Ed

[N3322G]

Ed,

I know exactly what you mean. It is why i started reading the Forum every day. if we haven't had the problem yet, we likely will so while I'm not a mechanic and don't' want to be one, I surely do learn a lot from others and it has helped immensely.