Retrofitting a PA-30 with dual toe brakes

[Lubek]

Forum aficionados: Is anyone aware of a kit or parts source to retrofit dual toe brakes in a Twin Comanche? One of the clubs is trying to put a PA-30 in service for multi rating training and would need to install toe brakes for the instructor seat. Any information would be appreciated.

[N3322G]

Hello Barry,

Many have tried and so far I haven't heard of anyone who has found the parts. Mom, Marion Jayne and previous owner of the Twin we have, did send the Twin to a shop and asked for dual brakes and... she got them, two sets of pads on each main ... then some dogs ran in front of us on landing and she stomped on them ... they were removed shortly thereafter as we both thought the Twin was going to hit its nose.

But I digress, I learned w/o dual brakes on a 2800' - so did the husband. There is a thread on the Forum on this topic. You might try searching from the box on the upper right of the screen. As perhaps your instructors already know, control of approach speed is critical to successful landing in the Twin.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Lubek]

Patricia,

Thanks for the anecdote. I should have been clear that I was enquiring about the dual brakes on behalf of my AME who also services the planes for a flight school. They are buying a PA30 and want to put dual brakes in it (I believe the insurance of most flight schools requires dual brakes on all of their training craft). The service manuals indicate dual braking systems were an option when ordering a new PA30.

I do have a PA30, but have no need nor intention of following suit.

Another AME suggested they find the toe brakes, master cylinder and associated parts from a single Comanche to retrofit the twin. I am not a mechanic but It seems to me the difficulty with that approach would be retrofitting the pivot bar for the toe brake pedals. But it is an option

Barry
ICS #16478

[JIMICS2452]

The parts manual shows a dual toe brake installation and parts list, so it can be done. Your mechanic should compare the part numbers in the right side installation with the single bake installation for the left side. I suspect most could be found in salvage yards.

[N3322G]

Barry,

Yes, I knew you were asking for co-pilot toe brakes (and so was Mom). Jim's suggestion is a good one. If the mechanic can get the part numbers, goggle has helped me find parts in the past so has Webco and ASOD.com and Preferred and...

Good Luck to the mechanic!

[steen]

Barry,
My Twinkie has dual (L&R side) brakes and I have had folks try to buy them from me.
A good friend wanted to provide dual instruction with his Twinkie and set about finding brake pedals for the right side.
The only source was from salvage yards and they were ridiculously expensive, not including install and paperwork.
Best bet in my opinion....buy a Twinkie with dual brakes, or (gasp) use another aircraft type.
Steen

[Kristin Winter]

Piper had a kit. The kit is rarer than hen's teeth. It is not easy to find all the parts. Once you do, it is a bear to install, so I am told. It took me a couple of years, but I have gathered up just about everything NOS, except I only have one right hand pedal. If I get serious, I may have to have someone cast one, or perhap modify a left hand one. Once I have both pedals, I pretty much have all the parts. God knows when I might get around to doing this, if ever.

I recommend finding a twin that already has the dual brakes.

In truth, if I was going to put a training twin on the flight line I would get a Geronimo Apache.

[bernard nowlen]

dual brakes are no standard on the Geronimo either, I had a 62 Geronimo without them. fft bernie

[MULEFLY]

I personally only know of one retrofit of right side toe brakes on a PA30. Bill Wenkman (since gone west) did it on his PA30 probably about 15 years ago... before I had met him. I seem to recall he had sourced the parts from a wreck that occurred in Europe. He did tell me it was very difficult. But he was retired at the time and as such, time was not a factor. As a foot note... while Bill achieved more than 25,000 hours of flight time during his life... he did get an A&P rating after age 80.

Great guy... I (and others) miss him.

Jim

[Kristin Winter]

In a multiengine trainer, I don't worry about toe brakes for the instructor all that much. I have never had to take over the braking function from a pilot advanced enough to be playing with a twin.

[steen]

I agree, Kristin.
If brake application is the last resort, the instructor has been napping.
Steen

[bernard nowlen]

The DPE at Chico won't give you a twin engine check ride unless the plane has dual brakes. There in lies the problem. bernie

[Kristin Winter]

The one in Santa Rosa will though.

[N3322G]

Interesting comment that a DPE won't give a check ride without dual brakes. Anyone who gets that objection might consider escalating the denial and here's why.

In 1992 my long time, race-winning, but low hour ASEL Private sister was going to race the Twin with ATP, ASMEL, CFII, Comm'l, Mom, Marion Jayne, around the world. To do that, even as Co-pilot she had to get her multi rating. Mom flew the Twin to Northern California and commenced to train sister Nancy in the Twin. When she felt Nancy was ready, they scheduled a check ride. The first DPE grilled Nancy for 2 hours and then declined to fly with her. No reason was given. There was no criticisms of the responses given during the 'oral'.

Needless to say, Mom was not pleased. If in her opinion the pilot was ready to take the checkride, then who was the DPE to decline. She called the FAA and spoke to apparently a very nice heads-up guy who apologized and re-scheduled the checkride for the following day on a Sunday. Nancy obviously passed and they went on to win second in the World Race.

So, was it the lack of co-pilot brakes? Since the DPE never got in the aircraft and did not ask that question, don't think so. My sister's take was that at 5' and 1/2 inch and female, she believes the DPE was concerned about her capabilities and perhaps his ability to recover from any problem. BTW, same sister is now President and CEO of Tailwinds.com - read her blog on the race - it is as amazing as she is ... I might be biased.

As Kristin and Steen have so eloquently stated, by the time a person gets to multi-engine training, braking operations should not be a concern.

[James Gardner]

I just saw this right side brakes question... Sorry I was not on earlier. I was offered a PA-30 right side brake kit by Comanche Gear in Florida, back in January! I am surprised Matt didn't see this post. You might contact him for a good deal on an entire kit! Good luck!!