Upgrade a 180 to IFR or Upgrade to a 250 or 260?

[Larry Biever]

Hi,

I have a 1958 - 180 and want to start my IFR training this year in Canada (Alberta). The challange is that my plane is not IFR capable and needs almost everything upgraded. But I'm not sure if I should spend the money upgrading my plane, or sell it and buy a 250 or 260 that is ready to go. I have done a ton of work to it in the last 3 years - overhauled the engine, new 3 blade prop, 1000 hr gear inspection, Comanche Gear wiring harness, rebuilt the landing gear motor, new interior including upgrading the insulation (still needs a paint job), and all AD's are current. To get it IFR ready I need to install a heated pitot tube, alternate static source, upgrade nav/com instruments, which includes updating the panel because it is the old shot gun style. I don't have autopilot. I fly for fun, and a bit of work, so I don't expect to be pounding hard IFR a lot, but want to be prepared if I need to. I'll be flying about 50 to 100 hrs per year.

I'd be very interested in some opionions on if I should upgrade my plane, or sell and upgrade to a bigger plane that is ready to go? Also, is it reasonable to think I can upgrade my 180 for 25 to 30K?

Thanks
Larry

[N3322G]

Larry,

I looked at this issue a few years back and for me, I stuck with the known quantity and continued to improve it.

[David Pyle]

Larry,

For you the economics of the situation apply as well as a change in the mission. I suggest that you consider the present value of your 180, be specific about the cost of the IFR upgrades and the resultant value. Let's say that isn't affordable or economically prudent. Selling and buying could take months. You would likely have to come to the US to find what you want. There are quite a few 250 and 1965 260's for sale, but I'd try to buy a more modern 1966-72 260B/C; they are more likely to be equipped as you want, but few are for sale. Importing an airplane to Canada can be daunting.

I would be happy to send you my Comanche Buyer's Guide and to work with you if you decide to sell and buy. No charge. Call me if I can help. Dave Pyle 713 464 6717. I'm in Houston.

[Jay]

From a pure financial standpoint, you are probably better off selling your airplane and buying one where someone else has already taken the depreciation hit on the panel upgrade.

From the standpoint of owner satisfaction, there is a LOT to be said for getting a panel that is set up exactly the way YOU want, not how someone else wanted.

Jay

[N3322G]

Larry,

Periodically I have to remind people that Dave Pyle does not speak for me. Dave consistently misrepresents my thoughts and motives and this is no exception.

Dave Pyle posted "I'm inclined to agree with Ms. Keefer, however one should understand that her's is a twin Comanche that is part of her family."

I have repeatedly asked Dave to refrain from using my name in any communications. I do not know and have never met Dave. His behavior on Forums like this has been so objectionable that he has been banned from at least one Forum. I dislike making these statements but I am not willing to have my thoughts or motives publicly questioned by Dave Pyle.

Dave Pyle does not have any information about my decision to stay with the twin.

Personally, I dislike the downtime associated with upgrades. It is a lot of not-flying time. At the time of my decision to stay with the twin, I was looking at engine overhauls, panel overhaul, interior and paint. I looked very hard at a new aircraft ... a classic make vs buy decision. The twin would have been donated to one of the two museums that have requested it when I quit flying it. Ultimately, it was my knowledge and experience of flying and maintaining the twin that I didn't want to have to re-learn with another aircraft. Time is short. I stayed with the intellectual asset of knowledge I have about the twin and elected to continue to improve it and the plane.

As Jay said, there are benefits to getting the panel exactly the way you want it.

[David Pyle]

I eliminated reference to Ms. Keefer and her airplane though I would not consider it offensive. My apology to anyone who thought so.

[Mark Anderson]

Larry,

I think the first question , does the 180 meet your performance needs ? If not its an easy decision. Like Jay said, financially your are usually better off letting someone else pay for the avionics. Although it is nice having it exactly like you want it. I did a new panel on my 250 about 3 years ago. My plane was down for the better part of a year. That was the painful part. Depending on weather you need an auto pilot and a new panel or not will determine how far your money will go. You should be able to get the basics for 30k$. Good luck, either way it will be a lot of fun and worth it!

Mark

[Michael Bryant]

Larry,

As Mark said, the first question you need to ask yourself is whether the 180 meets your mission 80% of the time. If the answer is no, the next question is whether a 250 or 260 will meet your mission 80% of the time. Once you decide on which aircraft meets you mission 80% of the time, then you proceed with that aircraft.

If the 180 does meet you mission, the next question you need to ask yourself is "What is the likelihood any other 180 you will find will have a freshly overhauled engine, new 3 blade prop, 1000 hr gear inspection, Comanche Gear wiring harness, rebuilt the landing gear motor, new interior including upgrading the insulation, and all AD's current in addition to a new panel?" If you found that 180 with all that done, what would it cost? Also, if it has the new panel but is need of the other work, how much will doing all this to another aircraft cost you in dollars and time?

Can you really find another Comanche you will consider "ready to go" based on the the work you have already done to yours?

We just bought our 180 in Jan and are having a new panel installed. The panel it came with was the shotgun layout with ancient VHF nav/comms, a Garmin 300XL, no intercom, and no com selector panel. I did price comparisons and felt we could get what we needed and wanted by purchasing an aircraft at a lower price that needed the panel work versus buying one with the panel already done for about the same price. Our new panel will run about $20,000. We opted not to go with a Garmin 430W as that would have added $7500 more and we did not have the resources to go that high. We did opt for used avionics. For that price we are getting a layout we designed with recommendations from the shop, all new CBs, an avionics bus, all instruments lighted on a separate dimmer, a non-precision IFR capable GPS, dual VHF nav/comms, a 4 place intercom, and an JPI EDM-700.

For us, the gear inspection and wiring harness are to go.

Questions only you can answer.

Best of luck.

Michael

[David Pyle]

Mike,

Privately you might want to share your 180 purchase experience with Larry and he may not have considered used avionics. He lives in Canada and some of their rules may be different. Since he obviously likes his 180 enough to fix it up mechanically seems to me that the issue is cost of the IFR competency. Probably more to the decision.

[Larry Biever]

Thanks for all of the replies. So far my 180 has done everything I need, and hasn't left me wanting more, but I've never flown IFR so I don't know what is coming. I took a quick look for used 250's or 260's in Canada and there are very few. I'm a bit nervous about importing into Canada - I've heard a few stories that the import was 10K or more, and difficult to get passed. Time to do a bit more soul searching.

[Larry Biever]

One more note. I'm talking with Ron at Ron and John's Comanche Service in Portland. He is a great guy and has been extremely helpful so far. He's also sent me some very impressive pictures of past work.

[Mark Anderson]

Larry, here is a good article on new panel installations:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/panel_r ... 467-1.html

If you can swing it financially I think a new panel is the way to go. If you can go with an already STC'd panel this will save you some time, money and headaches. When I did mine the avionics shop fabricated it from scratch. We had to employ a DER and wait weeks for FAA approval. The main hold up was just trying to work around their holiday and vacation schedule.

Once you get a good panel layout you can always add to it later on as you have the money. A good layout will also make your IFR flying safer and a lot more fun.

Have fun!

Mark

[N3322G]

Larry,

John V. also helped a bit with our panel layout on this Forum, even though I couldn't afford to travel to his shop. Their reputation among Comanche owners is stellar.

[Jay]

Larry, if you can't find the right airplane in Cananda, then your course is clear! John is your man, you are in good hands.

Jay

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

I love my 180, and if you ask me what I have in it, I will have to lie! If you have the airplane you want, and if you can upgrade it to what you really need (or want), then the devil you know is much preferable to the devil you dont. I spent lots of time and money on the panel a few years ago. I actually have a new super secret panel project in the works, but even with the costs, I have enjoyed the new panel immensely. With these gas prices, I wouldn't buy a 250/260 to get rid of my 180 thats for sure. To each their own.
-Zach