Overhaul disaster (near)

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

As promised here is the Cliff Notes version of my overhaul debacle.

Sept, during the convention, I found out that my engine needed more help than just a cyl. At the convention, a nice presentation was given by Firewall Forward. They impressed me with their centrilube cam process and provided a quote, and a timeline that was very good. Too good in fact as I was to find out.

The trouble started shortly after they received my deposit. The engine was not picked up as promised and communication became spotty, but the engine was picked up and I was assured it was not an issue and that the promised turn time of two weeks would be kept. As per their request I sent all of the accesories and hoses as well as the exhaust system with the engine. Well two weeks came and went. Days of communication blackout with only voicemail reached, then excuses and promises that they were almost done and my engine would be shipped in a couple days etc.....fast forward to the second week of December, they finally said it was ready to ship and I owed them the balance. I objected hevily to the expedite fee I paid, and they did come off of that and picked up the freight both ways. I finally got a crate with an engine, oil cooler, carburetor, two mags, a starter, some new hoses, all of the exhaust system EXCEPT THE MUFFLERS. Also conspicuously missing was the paperwork for any of the accesories or the engine. Being that I now had a whole slew of unapproved parts in my hangar, I sent numerous emails, called, left voicemails, and got no immediate answers. After another week an envelope shows up with paperwork and tags for the engine and accessories, but that 6th sense inside of me said something didnt seem right. I didnt trust the engine as the signoff seemed to be boilerplate and smacked of someone who had not seen my engine as it did have some custom details that were not referenced. It was also signed off by an A/P not a CRS or IA, which isn't bad on its own right, but was not as things were represented and seemed a bit odd. Also the AD and SB list was conspicuously short for this engine. So now I had an engine of questionable pedigree, no mufflers, and some accessories that looked pretty good with the appropriate data and tags, all for the price of an overhaul, as well as worthless warantee as Firewall Forward would not return any of my calls or emails.

I proceeded to weigh my options. I didnt feel good about this engine, and I called Signature Engines in Cincy to get a quote for teardown and inspect. It was pretty reasonable, I trust them and they said they could get it done in 10 working days. They said they would fully document the engine, repair anything they found wrong for added cost of course, and test run in the test cell, supplying all of that data as well. After 8 working days, they called and said, come get the engine. When I got there, they walked me through everything they found wrong. The forward main bearing was the wrong size, several service bulletins were not complied with, the accessory gear train had excessive lash, and probably the most egregious assembly error, the case had been swaped at overhaul for one for a fixed pitch prop, which has a case drain port from the forward crank gallery preventing any pressurized oil from reaching the prop, thus preventing any control of the prop by the governor. Man am I glad I didnt spend all that time mounting the engine to find out it didnt work! Signature crated the engine and dropped it in the bed of my truck. They handed me an envelope with full documentation and measurements of all components and clearances, and I drove back to the hangar with full faith in what I had in the crate, and the cost for that...priceless!

The last piece of the puzzle was the fact I had two missing mufflers. I have the APP Eagle Cowl and duel exhaust, so I called Dave Pratt and told him what happened. Dave was very helpful, and told me he was ordering some exhaust systems that day, and he would add two mufflers to the order, and to just send him a check when I could. He gave me a heck of a discount on two new mufflers, and they showed up the next week. Thanks Dave for your continued support of the Comanche type!

The bottom line? I believe I got sucked into a Ponzi type scheme with Firewall Forward, and feel lucky to actually have gotten an engine core back. Signature Engines did an awsome job, and I will support them more from now on. Others are now having similar issues with Firewall Forward as stated on the EAA chat forums, which is unfortunate. I tried to support a company who seemed to be trying to support us as Comanche owners and ICS members, but unfortunately I got burned, and have been without my primary ride for close to 6 months, but it could have been much worse if I hadn't paid attention to that little voice inside. Take this as an advisory notice. Stick to those suppliers who have proven their good intentions and continued service to our fleet. Though no one is perfect, it is how the problem resolution is handled that sets the reputable shops apart from the shisters. I am pursuing, through multiple channels, preventing this from happening to others who might otherwise get sucked into sending work to Firewall Forward.

Zach

[Jay]

Whoa! That's a horror story!

Jay

[Kristin Winter]

Geez! That is a major bummer.

I know that their long time manager, Mark Seader is no longer there and they don't even have a website anymore. I am sensing bankruptcy. If my contacts or advice are of any help, you have my coordinates.

[N3322G]

Zach, so glad you are smart enough to recognize the problems - not all folks would. Thanks for sharing.

Please post when you take the first flight so we can share the joy too.

[SLIMDREDGER]

Zach: What a saga! Hope you are able to recover something from FF.

Am I correct that Firewall Forward was the succesor to Western Skyways that used to be at Troutdale, Oregon? I have the impression that the engine shop and most of the personnel at Western Skyways moved to the Rockies and became Firewall Forward?

I had a Twinco engine overhauled there some years ago and at 250 hrs or so it spun a crankshaft bearing on a trip to California. I took it back to them and they charged full price for another overhaul. I had the remove, replace, and freight costs and had to go through the prop as well. They managed to lose my log books in the process, too.

I thought I had the overhaul from hell, but yours seems much worse, from any viewpoint. Glad you have the expertise to deal with it.

Warm regards, Al Powers

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Al,
Western Skyways is not Firewall Forward. Western is alive and well in Montrose CO. We have used them recently and had very good experiences. This was my first experience with Firewall...doubt I will get much out of them, but...at least the world is aware of the issues.
Zach

[Tom Veatch]

Apparently there are two flavors of "Firewall Forward", one in Ontario, Canada, http://www.firewall.ca/index.html, and one in Loveland, Colorado, http://investing.businessweek.com/resea ... d=25729317, and http://www.firewallforward.com/.

Since I'm not familiar with either, it might be good for this discussion to distinguish between the two, if, in fact, there is a distinction.

[skipsouthernsky]

Dear Zach and all,

I'm really sorry to hear about the nightmare overhaul you encountered from Firewall Forward. I was at the same seminar that was presented at Savannah. It was interesting and made you think that they were a shop that did excellent work and since they were diligent enough to come all the way from Colorado to Ga. you would think they valued business.

As an A&P I am allowed to do my own overhaul work and I do. Although I'm not perfect, I at least see exactly what is going into the engine with my own eyes and place those items into the engine with my own hands and tools. I certainly don't save any money in the process and do a lot of hard work as well. But at least I am not dependent on a shop working behind a curtain telling me to trust them. I am very fortunate to be in the position I am in and it has allowed me to progress in aviation far beyond where I would be if having to pay for this kind of work and live with the results. Knowledge is a powerful thing. I feel for those who are at the mercy of various shops when major work has to get done. Although they are not perfect either, I would say that if you have to depend on a shop to do the job right and not pull punches, then the Lycoming factory is probably the way to go. Not cheap, but I think they are about as trustworthy as you can get and will stand behind their product. Some of the other shops that I really thought did good work, I have in the near past seen some enlightening occurrences with their products.

I am currently overhauling an IO540 from my other plane. It's a long slog to get to the finish line and I certainly can't say when it will be done. I overhauled the other IO540 three years ago. Believe it or not, the other IO540 had been most recently overhauled by Firewall Forward back in about 1988. It was at TBO and most of what I found inside was in pretty good condition. Although I have heard some negative comments about Firewall Forward over the years, in this particular instance, their work that I encountered with my own eyes was good, long lasting work. Go figure.

The second IO540 that I am currently working on was most recently overhauled by Barrett in 1992 and it also showed no signs of any poor workmanship when reaching TBO. Can I recommend either of these shops, of course not, based on only one snapshot picture of their work from 20 years ago.

I am glad to hear that you believe that you now have a good dependable engine to install. Out of 100 persons, you are probably the only one that would not have just gone ahead and installed the engine and tried to run it. That is very good judgement. The other 99 would have leaned the hard way of the quality of the product that they received. It's a sad case, but at least it had a spotlight on it so we all could learn. Thanks for sharing.

By the way, this hole that was left open in the crankcase that would allow governor oil to drain, I'm not familiar with it. Was it a simple screw a pipe plug fix or did it require a different crankcase? I'm baffled on that one.

One other quick point I would like to bring up. This episode brings to mind Bill Wenkman and his engine problem. One engine that he had overhauled (or did it himself, I'm not sure) had a major failure on take-off with all the runway behind him after about 5 hours of operation. He was able to get it around the pattern and land uneventfully (excellent job). After the second overhaul of the same engine, understandabily, he was paying more attention to the engine guages then he should have and ended up stalling on short final with eventual fatal results. Moral of the story, this engine stuff is vitally important. Be careful out there.

Sincerely,
Skip Dykema

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Skip,
The drain hole I referenced is supposed to be on engines with a solid crank, ie those with fixed pitch prop installations. Obviously with that drain hole there and a hollow crank and a gov. supplying oil, the line of least resistance is back to the case, not controlling the prop as it is supposed to. This hole is usually case specific for fixed pitch installations. There is Lycoming data that allows tapping and plugging this port so that is what was done rather than exchanging the case. Btw, this was a Lyc factory engine, ohd in 2000 that failed miserably on the longevity as the bottom end was loose as a goose after 1350 hrs. So even Lyc can make some junk. I like your solution of OH yourself, but for me time was the commodity I didn't have!

Tom, the one I am talking about is the one in Loveland CO.
Zach

[IO720]

Hi Zach. These sort of things infuriate me. How can these people risk the lives of others by selling an inferior product for an airplane? Unlike Skip, I'm not an A+P, but I certainly try to produce a quality product for all of the auto body repairs we do specifically because of the risks involving other people's lives. I feel that this company doesn't care about the safety of others and should be banned from anything involving ICS, including advertising or sponsorship, until the high standards we expect from those who do support ICS are met by them.

Firewall Forward...you can keep your money.

Rick Mascari
N64400

[Scott R Morris]

Zach: I strongly recommend that you take your paperwork to the FSDO and file a complaint. It's exactly these types of problems that should be investigated by the FAA, and yes they do actually investigate if you get the right maintenance inspector on their tail. It won't help you with all the costs you've expended, but it may help prevent other owners from getting burned.

Scott