Paperless Cockpit

[Stan Schrek]

My New Year's resolution is to get away from carrying my Jep manuals and spending the time with updates. I'd like to hear the Society's thoughts on what is the best tablet to purchase (initial cost, subscription, daylight vis., etc.) as well as the better program to use (subsciption costs, available plates, enroute charts, sectionals, airport diagrams, etc).
There is a ton of information online. Some confusing and contradicting. I know I will get get good, solid opinions here.

Stan

[Mark Anderson]

Stan,

This is what I use. So far so good. iPad $499-$899, with Fore Flight $75- $150 per year for Geo reference plates, Need 3G iPad ( it has internal GPS). These are the NOS charts. I don't think Fore Flight has Jepp chats. The Fore flight App has a good brightness control. Also you can enlarge the charts so they are easier to read.

Mark

[N8632Y]

stan,
ditto on the IPad. Foreflight is good w/ keepin up w/ updates.
I find a quick check at home, and i'm always up to date, all charts/plates.
Easier to let the program manage the updates, just click the button and let it work. No more pulling out all the charts/plates and looking at the date on each one.
Also flying a distance, no more folding maps and trying to find where you are, just look at the chart in foreflight and see where u are, easy, love it.
No more paper, except to write a clearance, or something. I may bring a backup plate if expect LIFR.
I do not use an external GPS, my ipad has 3G, so i get location services, but I DO NOT rely on the georeference for accuracy, i use the 530W, HSI, so why spend money on external GPS.
Weather, i still use my 396, don't plan on changing to weather on IPad.
Just have to learn the flow pattern of finding what u need, when u need it.
steve
Nipad1

[Mark Anderson]

The Fore Flight App has a scratch pad feature that I have used for copying a clearance. You just drag your finger across the screen to write. It works amazingly well, although I prefer paper for this. I normally carry some paper plates just for departure and destination airports just as a back up, not always current. The hardest thing for me is prying the iPad out of my girls hands when I need it, as they are normally watching a movie on it. The company that makes the wifi hot spot gizmo for iPad weather, Barron Services is in my home town Huntsville, Al. A friend of mine that works there expects more changes and price reductions. I have seen it for around $1000 on the net. As I understand, it your requires a separate XM subscription as of now. So like most things with avionics now, it is somewhat of a moving target. I agree with Pat, I don't see the need for the weather on it. Maybe if you do not have a back up GPS. I have my weather on the Aera 560.

Mark

[Jay]

On the hardware side, i haven't seen anything that is even close to the iPad. Just the right size for chart display, clear display and dead simple to use. Some have reported theirs overheating, but I suspect they were left sitting in direct sunlight for an extended period of time or were kept inside a case so they couldn't cool off. I've never had a problem, and that includes while flying in and out of airports with an ambient temperature in the 100s. Glare on the screen can be annoying, I've resolved that with a stick on glare shield that also protects the glass. Tipping the device an inch one way or the other also works!

There's a lot of discussion about how to mount the iPad. I carry mine on a lap board, some folks use yoke mounts, some just balance the iPad on their lap. Whatever works for you.

On the software side, there are multiple vendors who are competing hard for the market with frequent updates and improvements. ForeFlight is a very complete package, geo-referenced charts for the entire US is $150 per year. It's a very polished, very feature rich set up. Also handles flight planning chores, including the AFD, checking weather and filing. X-plane offers similar utility. Flight Guide and SkyCharts offer charts without all of the other features, good options if charts are all you want. All the above use government (NOS, NACO, whatever they are calling themselves this week) charts.

Jepp has their own app, JeppFD. If you have an electronic Jepp subscription the app is free, but that electronic Jepp subscription will be more expensive than the government charts, just like paper Jepps are more expensive than paper government charts. Jepp's package is pretty much exactly what you would get in a paper Jepp subscription. Enroute charts, approach charts and their airway manuals. They are different in that with the government providers you are downloading basically PDF versions of the charts that you can zoom in or out of. With the Jepps you download the raw data and the app puts it into chart format. This makes for faster downloads and allows "track up" on the enroute charts versus North up on ForeFlight for example. Jepp promises geo-referenced approach plates and flight planning funtions "soon", but they aren't their yet.

ForeFlight and Xplane offer in flight weather using ADS-B. You have to buy about $1,500 worth of hardware to get that to work, you must be in range of an ADS-B ground station and the information isn't as complete as with XM weather. Jepp has no weather (yet).

I'm happy with ForeFlight running on my iPad using my 396 for XM weather and letting my GNS 480 guide the airplane. I do have the Jepp app as well, and I find myself using their enroute charts, just because I like the "track up" view. For approaches I use ForeFlight to get geo referencing. I didn't think that would be a big deal, but once I tried it I really like it. I don't use it for guidance, that's what the panel mount stuff is for. But for anticipating what is coming next while ATC is vectoring you for an approach, the "little blue (or yellow, depending on the app) airplane" on the approach plate is great.

As I mentioned above, the vendors are working hard to one up each other with new features, so anything anyone says today may be outdated tomorrow. I should also note that the Feds have indicated that they are going to start charging for electronic charts (they have been free) so costs may go up with the government chart providers.

Jay

[N3322G]

Ditto on iPad and Foreflight.

We used both paper and iPad until we got very comfortable single pilot iPad.

We still pre-print the expected approach charts for the destination airport from Jepp and pre-load them and any alternates on iPad but now use only iPad for trips except I'll keep a backup sectional for departure and arrival airports. Guess 30 years with IBM keeps me aware that a plan B, plan C and plan D is always helpful.

[Quint Van Deman]

Just to give some food for thought, I use an android tab (Acer Icon a500) with the avilution app.
Very happy with it. Subscription is $5 a month, and my phone can serve as a backup running the same app. Simple & works.

[Stan Schrek]

Question on the iPad. Is it necessary to have the 3G service or can the Foreflight system be downloaded via Wi-Fi? I have so many subscriptions with the paper Jepps, the Garmin 430w, XM weather....I don't need another phone bill. The goal is reduced paper as well as reduced maintenance costs.

[Mark Anderson]

Stan,

The 3G iPad would be necessary if you want the geo referenced Fore Flight option because the wifi only ipad version does not have an internal GPS. The wifi only will work fine for just charts without geo reference option. This is just the way Apple packaged the hardware. You are not using 3G or wifi in flight. However you do not have to activate a 3G plan for the GPS to work. When in flight you will want to go to settings and turn off cell data and wifi, not airplane mode. If you do buy the wifi only iPad and want the geo reference charts you would need to buy an external GPS such as the Bad Elf for $100 , the same price as the 3G upgraded iPad.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but this is they way I understand it.

Mark

[Jay]

I wouldn't download ForeFlight updates over a 3G connection. For the three far Western states only it's still hundreds of megs for Hi, Lo, Approach and Sectional charts. You want to do that over WiFi.

Even though I have GPS on the iPad, I still use an external GPS (XGPS150). My iPad spends most of cruise flight down between the pilot's seats, but when I pick it up and turn it on it still has a position lock from the external GPS. Having said that, the GPS in the iPad does "lock up" pretty quickly. If I wasn't such a gadget geek, I'd probably just use the internal GPS.

By far and away the most useful thing about the 3G connection (to me) is being able to check weather and file from pretty much anywhere, including hotels where they want to charge you for WiFi and dark lonely ramps with no WiFi in sight. Just a great tool for that, and you are not restricted to any particular app. AWC, DUAT, DUATS, Fltplan.com, Flightaware, Weather.com, Weather underground; whatever you like to use works fine from an iPad. I use DUATS and AWC for flight planning, but I freely admit that's out of inertia. I've been using them for so long it's second nature. ForeFlight really has good flight planning functionality.

The iPad is also good for surfing forums (I'm using mine right now), letting your passengers entertain themselves with Angry Birds, read books, etc.

Jay

[Pete Marshall]

Another vote for the iPad with Foreflight, it's a great program and it gets better with every update. They just added a measuring tool where if you touch two fingers to the screen it will give the distance between the points and the time to get there, pretty neat. As was mentioned be sure to buy the 3g version, I didn't do enough research and though I was saving a couple bucks going wifi only. After buying the external GPS I spent the same as I would have by just buying the 3g in the first place.

I fly IFR quite a bit and find the iPad really nice when I get a fix that I'm not familiar with. I can have it added to my route in a matter of seconds on the iPad and make my turn if needed. Once I have that done I will add it into the GPS400W, which is more time consuming.

For weather I'm currently using a 396, I looked at adding weather to the main Garmin unit but at $5,000 vs about $600 for the 396 I figured I'd save the difference for fuel money. I had heard that there is a bluetooth XM receiver in the works for the iPad (not the wifi one referenced in a previous post) that will allow XM weather to be shown in ForeFlight. If that comes to be my 396 will be for sale.

[Kevin Ebsen]

Stan: I use the Skypad and have been real happy. http://www.seattleavionics.com/SkyPad.aspx I just upgraded to Skypad3 with lifetime subscription so I have a Skypad2 for sale with top of the line subscription through April of 2012 if your interested.

Kevin

[greg]

I'm another fan of the I-Pad and ForeFlight. I have a 32g 3G I-Pad that has both ForeFlight and WingX loaded on it and both are very capable apps but I think ForeFlight is much more intuitive to use and a better flight planner but WingX has a couple feathers that ForeFlight doesn't. WingX has synthetic vision for a extra $100 and you need AN AHRS-G mini from Levil Technology for it to work but the demo I saw was impressive but I haven't bought it. WingX also will allow you to receive in-flight ADSB-B weather using a "SkyRadar" receiver from. It works well and you get current ATIS, NEXRAD etc. ForeFlight keeps saying the are working on adding ADS-B and if they ever do I will probably drop WingX.

If you don't have a 3G iPad you can still use the GPS moving map by getting an external GPS receiver. There are a few on the market that work with the I-pad. The GPS antenna that comes with the SkyRadar gives you WAAS on your I-Pad

[N8632Y]

greg,
i have the 3G, and the GPS reception is 95% good, down to the same accuracy that i get w/ the external GPS ant....
most of the time it is ok, but i have a 530W...and that is my nav...if i lose the ipad nav, it's temp and i don't mind, rather not spend the extra big bucks, yet...
steve

[greg]

Steve

I agree that that the internal GPS in the 3G I-Pads has good reception and is very accurate. If I am flying and don't need weather updates, I don't use the external GPS. I have a 430W (primary nav) and the I-Pad matches or is very close to the information I'm seeing on the 430W, even without the the external GPS. I mentioned the external GPS to reiterate that a non 3G I-Pad can still be used for geo-ref approach plates and moving maps by using a relitively inexpensive external GPS receiver/antenna and that some of these external GPS have WAAS accuracy. I think it's worth mentioning that regardless of accuracy claims, the I-Pad, with or with or without external GPS, is still not certified for primary navigation when flying IFR.
Greg