Maintenance Costs

[17031]

Can anyone provide feedback on maintenance costs per hour?

[Mark Anderson]

I flew my plane 200 hours last year and my annual cost $8,000.00 or $40.00 an hour. But that is with no engine reserve. The annual before that one was $12,000.00. However on both of these I did several upgrades, exhaust manifold, alternator conversion completely rebuilt the landing gear system and several other heavy items. I am hoping my next couple of annuals will be in the $ 3,000.00 range.

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Mark,
It kind of rubs me the wrong way when people say they had a X thousand dollar "annual". Frankly, you had and annual that was probably a flat rate, and all the additional costs were either repairs to things found during the inspection, or mods that you choose to do concurrently. A Comanche annual should be about 28 hrs flat rate, period, and twins are 34 (Piper flat rate book)! All of them cost the same (OK, there is some varience for shop rate). The annual is an INSPECTION only. Shame on those that defer maint. to inspection time and then complain about the bill. They should fix it when it breaks! At least you qualified your statement with the fact you did some upgrades, but lets call an apple an apple as far as annuals go. Rant off...
-Zach

[Ray B]

There are other factors involved in the flat rate cost of an annual. For instance, what is your FBO's overhead costs? Different airports have different rental rates and FBO requirements, are they required to be open 24/7, what's the fuel flowage fee, does the city or county pay the utilities or the FBO, plus many other things we as pilots do not think about. I think Zack's est. of 28 hours for the inspection segment sounds a bit high once your shop knows your airplane. But you should expect the first time in the shop for any aircraft new to that mechanic, he or she , is going to spend more time going over every nook and cranny. Remembering that our machines are 40 to 50 years old would your want it any other way?-----I totally agree with Zack concerning maintenance. I'm just completing the 2nd annual on 59P since I purchased her 16 months ago. The base cost of an annual for a single Comanche at my location is about $1,250. But in between those annuals I've spent $4,000+ at Webco to have the MLG completely gone through including new conduits, $1,200+ down in Florida with Matt for all new gear switches and wiring harness, $2,000 with Denny Haskins to replace/rebuild/inspect my tail horn/torque tube/tail assembly, plus $3,000 to have the gyros rebuilt and radio upgrades. If I considered those maintenance items as part of my annuals the costs would be 6 to 7K per year! But I did get to fly her 250 hours so far and next years expenses should be a lot less. ( I didn't mention that I spent $250 to have the control yokes removed and powder coated and $1,000 for Matts new front baffles. and $1,000 for another trip to Weco for new door hings/seals and reinforced lower door corner, just because I wanted them.) My wife might be listening! She thinks I'm spending the kid's inheritance---I claim I'm investing in it! She loves traveling in the Comanche so lets me get away with that opinion. Enough of my rambling--- time for bed it's a good day for flying tomorrow! Ray B

[David Pyle]

Tim,

If you own an airplane you should have an idea how much maintenance costs. Zach nailed it and I will add a couple of observations.

For a well-cared for single engine Comanche I budget $2000 for unscheduled maintenance and $2500 for the annual, $1500 of which is just the inspection, AD review and sign off. It is generally true that the more hours you fly between annuals the more will need to be fixed. An experienced pilot/owner with a well maintained airplane can expect fixed costs of ~$10K a year. Fuel is now a major expense.

If your question relates to purchase interest I would be glad to discuss these costs with you. The idea is to minimize risk.

Dave Pyle 713 464 6717

[N3322G]

Tim,

Depending upon the motivation for your question, you might want to develop your own fixed and variable cost components. If this is for your own budget purposes, it will help you understand where you have leverage. If it is to compare aircraft types or whether your cost per hour is comparable to others - this is nearly impossible to do unless the aircraft start in similar condition and are flown the same number of hours.

AOPA ran an article a couple of years back that listed all the components of cost -
a few of the fixed ones are hangar, insurance, annual inspection, ADs etc
a few of the variable ones are fuel, oil, parking fees, more frequent AD compliance and any improvements
And then there's the biggies of $30K for engine overhaul, $30K for upgraded panel, $15-20K for new paint from a good shop and an interior, well, $5-15K. Except for the engines, the rest of primarily cosmetic so not required unless you don't have a GPS certified for approaches and need to make one of those.

If you share your reason for asking the question, perhaps folks can be more specific in the answers.

[Jay]

The challenge to ball parking maintenance costs is that there are averages, but the bell curve is pretty flat and you may end up on one side or the other. I know a guy who owned a 421 for a few years and literally never spent a dime on anything but POL, light bulbs and inspections. That's not to say 421s are cheap, they certainly aren't. It's more to do with the previous owner of that airplane spending a ton on impeccable maintenance and a lot of good luck. On the other side, I know a guy who bought a 182, a simple airplane, but ended up spending a ton on maintenance. The flip side of the 421, the previous owner had neglected things, and my friend paid the price.

Over the long haul you'll ride to the middle of the curve, but if you own the airplane long enough you'll have years when you spend a lot more and years when you spend a lot less.

Good luck!

Jay

[Mark Anderson]

Zach, I am sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way or offended anyone. I was only trying to be helpful. This was such a broad open ended question it was hard to even answer. I guess I should have not responded. You are correct that I did not pay that much money for an "inspection". That would be ludicrous. The first annual I mentioned was negotiated into a pre buy inspection that I knew before I bought it, that it had quite a bit of deferred maintenance to be done. The second one, like I said I chose to do some upgrades and modifications. Also in the 2 years I have owned my airplane I have never knowingly deferred any maintenance. I have had several small repairs I did not mention. However, when I get my annual inspection I am more concerned with getting everything repaired than the price. I will stay out of this one and leave it to the experts! Thanks for correcting me.

[17031]

All,

I was surprised at all the responses, thank you, it is very helpful. As suggested I will provide a little more information.

I bought the plane when I passed my check ride 2 1/2 years ago (I got my instrument cert last fall). The reason for the purchase was to support my business, I'm a consultant, and to be able to visit my daughter and her family in LA more frequently. It has been a struggle to work through the various issues in using the plane but I have been able to figure things out with one notable exception - maintenance. This aspect has been terribly disappointing from a number of aspects.

First the cost. I bought a fixer-upper so expected numerous repairs the first year or so and I was not disappointed. However, the expenses don't seem to quit, contrary to what I have been told would happen. I’m not sure what to expect any more. I’m having trouble getting a straight answer on what these costs should be so I can determine if I’m doing something wrong or my experience is normal. I would post the info here but I’m in the process of collecting it now (I too need to separate the upgrades from the repair expenses). I can tell you this though, the current estimate to complete the annual is over $8k and I put on a little under 300 hours on the tach since the last annual. There have been additional costs during the year of course. I have been very diligent about keeping the plane in good repair.

Second the surprises. My frame of reference is the auto industry. I get an estimate of time and money up front and a phone call if the costs (or time) go over the amount quoted. With planes it feels more like I give them the plane and a blank check then hope for the best. Also, how is it that mechanics can crawl all over that plane all year but when the annual comes, that whole in the battery box that was OK the past 6 months suddenly becomes a requirement for the plane to be flight worthy? There’s something wrong with the whole process.

I suspect that my expectations need some adjustment. If I can get a realistic picture of what costs to expect and a clue as to how I should manage the mechanics I might be able to solve this problem. As it stands now, I must admit I’m nearing the end of my rope.

I hope you folks can help me work this out as I have become spoiled by the convenience and possibilities the plane has provided. Enough is enough.

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Mark,
No offense taken, and I don't want to discourage your participation. I simply was having one of this evenings and you were the one that said something that I do get a little miffed at. I'm glad you are maintaining the airplane. Trust me, it is not cheap, but getting in front of the maint. Curve is very rewarding.
Zach

[Jay]

If you are paying to fix the same things more than once, well that is a problem. But it's easy to run up bills like that on items like the 1,000 hour gear AD, a top overhaul on an engine that maybe didn't fly much for a few years, a torque tube and stab horn, etc. If work on those items is done properly, then you won't be repeating it for a long time.

I hear your frustration! But I would bet that if you gave up and sold the airplane, some lucky buyer would be getting a tuned up bird that would serve them well for a long time with minimal work.

Jay

[N3322G]

Tim,

As another person who hires others to work on the plane, I totally, completely and empatheticly understand your question.

I started reading the ICS Forum solely because I was having similar problems and questions. I've learned a lot by reading other owner's issues.

One of the things I had to learn was each shop/mechanic has their own skills and what they are best at doing. At an annual, the only thing that is required to be done is the inspection but because, the dissasembly is already done, frequently airworthiness repairs and ADs, optional repairs or improvements are made.

It is true that a battery box that was fine in 2010 can deteriorate enough that it has to be rebuilt or replaced in 2011. The shop should give you the options and the pricing to go with it. There is an upgraded box http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pa-28.php and I've goen to the gel battery to hopefully eliminate the battery maintenance and acid spill problems.

It is also true that one mechanic may view the battery box as fine and the next year the next mechanic has a different opinion. There will also be variances based upon how much Comanche knowledge the shop has. In this aspect airplane maintenance is very different than car maintenance. The older Comanches get, the fewer mechanics have lots of experience on them. Thanks to ICS posting the tech manuals on the website, I've learned by checkbook a lot about the parts and maintenance. I have no desire to be a mechanic but after a few years, I've learned to ask smarter questions.

The shop should be able to give you ballpark estimates for any work they propose, if not, I personally would look for another shop. Perhaps because you spent so much the previous years, they thought you want to spend that much every year - if you look at it from a business perspective, the relationship and understanding of the client goals takes awhile to develop. I normally prepare a list of what I want done in addition to the annual inspection and ask for an estimate.

Hope this helps. To read about the last annual I had done, see this website at http://www.comancheflyer.com/NS/index-flyersN.php February, 2011 issue page 28. I'd be interested in reading about your annuals in future issues.

[David Pyle]

Tim confesses that he bought a "fixer-upper"; that he was a new pilot (and likely) first time airplane buyer. I looked it up in the Pathfinder to see that it is a 1967 260B. I have a picture before Tim bought it. While not wanting to prejudge the purchase, if a thorough pre-purchase inspection was performed some of the inherent risk/future expense might have been determined or discounted.

There are many factors we don't know that may or may not be applicable to our experience. Having owned a bunch of 260Bs I believe that there is an occasional bad apple in the barrel. I call those "hard luck" airplanes. Reported costs mean little unless we know the specific circumstances.

[Hank Spellman]

When picking up my Comanche from maintenance (annual inspection or any other maintenance event) I always ask if any condition was noted that, while OK for now, will likely need work in the near future. It saves me from future surprises and provides some basis for planning future expenditures.

Hank

[tomburke1]

When buying a "fixer upper" you usually end up surprised at the cost of getting the aircraft "right". There is no free lunch in aviation. It's like that old oil filter advertisement says ... pay me now or pay later.
I think it's cheaper and a bit more predictable to buy an airplane the way you want it then to make it the way you want it.