Growing the membership

[Ben Ayalon]

[Scott Ducey]

Ben, Jeffs question was directed at Dick. Jeff and I are not a team, so I see no reason why Dick could not answer his question or anyone elses question. But that is not the reason why Dick does not respond. As far as my commentary concerning Kuszick. Yes, I was very direct and pointed. I have seen some members post rather devicive commentary that are directed at individuals and ICS overall. I have deliberately tried to keep my commentary above the belt and stick to the facts. I think I have, but understand why you would think otherwise.

I am of the opinion that since we have a vehicle like a forum, it would be relatively easy for members of the Board to communicate and listen to its members. To have an open and honest dialog with the members that pay dues to ICS. Don't you think it is odd that none of the Board members weigh in on issues and express their views concerning the direction of ICS - their vision of the future, how they are going to solve issues? Do you think their lack of communication is because they 'want to stay above the fray', or they are just not interested in having their ideas being challenged? Do you think an unwillingness to communicate their ideas is a sign of good leadership, or good listeners?

Ben, it is for these reasons that I asked the questions. It is for these reasons why i used the tone that i did. However, there will be no answers because they have none.

Best regards,

Scott Ducey

[fowlerflaps]

"Don't you think it is odd that none of the Board members weigh in on issues and express their views concerning the direction of ICS - their vision of the future, how they are going to solve issues?"

Scott, Kristin and all the others that are trying to effectuate positive change,

I agree, this is no way to run an organization that is geared towards preserving the value of Comanches, it is a real shame. The worst part of this is that there are capable people willing to take the brunt of the hard work (ie type support) and are so readily having their ideas shot down. To make matters worse none of the 'powers that be' seem to be asking any paying members what they think. I regularly lurk on these forums and sometimes post. I make it a point not to get involved with this political stuff, but here I am. I just can't help myself at this point. I am writing here to say that, all of us who currently own a Comanche are being cheated of its value by the very organization that is in place to protect it.

I bought my beautiful 69' PA-30C last September. Seemingly, before a lot of the unrest with type support started to play out here. I must honestly say that anyone interested in purchasing a Comanche would be crazy in doing so after thumbing through these forums. I know I have just shot myself and the rest of us in the proverbial foot by stating that here but its true. Sorry.

Other than coming here for the technical advice of our Comanche sages/gurus, and for tips on finding parts this website and forum is very uninspiring and depressing. The big question here, and the reason I felt compelled to write this is, why aren't the BOD responding to any of this? What is their plan to take care of the obvious type support issues, value and Comanche community? I just don't understand why no one is responding to any of this dialogue on the forums. Isn't that the very definition of a 'Forum'; to dialogue?

We are all adults here and I view this as 'business', no-one should take this personally. Scott's post was pointed but in my opinion by no means a personal attack. He as well as every other member deserve answers.

TO THE BOD:
Where are you in all of this and why aren't you responding to your constituency? You owe us this and if you don't feel you do than step aside.

Sincerely,

Chad

[SLIMDREDGER]

I think Scott and Kristin have well expressed in both forums my (and many of my friends who are Comanche owners) concerns for technical support and have done so without personal attacks on the ICS officers.

I consider they have disagreed with out being disagreeable. I admire and suport their efforts.

I continue to be discouraged by the refusal of any of the ICS officers to respond to the questions raised in the forums.

A. H. Powers ICS 2978

[jeffrey aryan]

To Ben and All,

Ben, I appreciate your comments about Dick and Scott.

First, I think Dick should respond because he made the statement about the membership drive. He announced himself as "Marketing Committee Chairman". The buck stops at his desk and I believe the question was straight forward and simple.

Second, I don't think Dick has a soft skin because he took the job and that entails' points of view that he may not agree with. That is what the job is about. Just take any politician, that is what they get when in office. But then again, I could be wrong.

Dick, please respond to the question it is important to the membership.

Third, Sorry Ben, I am not in partnership with Scott. Nor did I discuss any of my comments with him before I posted on the forum. Sorry.

Again, Thanks to all for the comments.


Jeff Aryan ICS 10151

[Ben Ayalon]

I will answer to your posts in few days, currentley I am running against time.

Talk soon

Ben

[Kristin Winter]

Chad,

Sadly, you are proceeding from a false premise. That premise is that ICS is here to support the aircraft. Regardless of the mission statement, ICS is here to publish a magazine that caters to the "club" that started this social organization. This is unlikely to change until the majority of the old timers reach room temperature. Type support will have to look elsewhere. I wish it were not that way, but it is.

[Alan Cheak]

And that is why most of the real action is on the other forum. Answers to questions about Comanche ownership are usually answered within hours of posting. I'm usually looking at Delphi a couple of times a day. As for this website maybe once every other day or so but I know that very few people post here except for the dedicated few. Wake up BOD or you'll lose whats left of the membership.

Alan

[rstan]

Yes WHERE IS THE BOD in this discussion ??

Where are you guys ?

Where is LEADERSHIP ?

Thanks
RIchard

[Scott Ducey]

[Ben Ayalon]

Scott, Jeff, all.

My apologies for the length of time that I took to come back to you. I have just finished 5 weeks training for a new job and now have to run on my own…not easy, I work about 14h a day and on top had to help and sort some issues with our latest fly-in to France which was very good. Now to the point.

“Ben, Jeffs question was directed at Dick. Jeff and I are not a team, so I see no reason why Dick could not answer his question or anyone elses question. But that is not the reason why Dick does not respond. As far as my commentary concerning Kuszick. Yes, I was very direct and pointed.”

Scott.
Two wrongs do not make good. I think that anything can be said in more than one way, punches, even above the belt are not one of them. Don’t think that sometime I don’t want to kill someone on that forum or another, I do, but I always try to say what I want in a non-personal way. Simple words when communicated over the net can be very painful and hurting because that there is no eye contact. I agree with you that Dick had to come back and answer Jeff, but you effectively re-inforced the reason given by board members for their absence from the forum, they say: “Every time we say something we are being attacked, we don’t need it, we are working for the good of the many, we are volunteers and we refused to be treated this way”.
Can you argue with this? I think not. Non of us on the board (Yes, I am on the board) is being paid, all phone calls, including international, are paid by us, add to it the hours that are spent on ICS or tribe matters the job becomes a job that requires commitment. Saying that, I think that any person that takes any public position should be ready to take some flack and sometime answer back.

“I am of the opinion that since we have a vehicle like a forum, it would be relatively easy for members of the Board to communicate and listen to its members. To have an open and honest dialog with the members that pay dues to ICS. Don't you think it is odd that none of the Board members weigh in on issues and express their views concerning the direction of ICS - their vision of the future, how they are going to solve issues?”

I agree, I think that the forum is a great opportunity that is missed again and again and again and… however, sometime things take time to mature and until it happens there isn’t much to say. Every 2 months (or so) I send a newsletter to my tribe members, trust me that it is not always as simple to fill 2-3 pages with information, yet it does not justify the current situation of ‘no communication’. ‘No communication’ is a very frustrating situation that causes lots of anger and frustration, then every little and unimportant issue gathers momentum and develops a life of its own. I think that lots of bad feelings could be avoided if more board members would have frequent the forum.

Jeff
"First, I think Dick should respond because he made the statement about the membership drive. He announced himself as "Marketing Committee Chairman". The buck stops at his desk and I believe the question was straight forward and simple.“

I agree, but once burnt twice shy. Why should he come back? To get more fire? I can see his point and I can see yours. As you know by now I have different views on several ICS issues

“Third, Sorry Ben, I am not in partnership with Scott. Nor did I discuss any of my comments with him before I posted on the forum. Sorry. “

No apologies are needed, I did not make any assumptions, we are all free to express opinion.

Now something that I would like to say to you all.
A change is something that is not a ‘given right’, a change is something that sometime there is a need to fight for and be committed to, nothing is given on a ‘Silver tray’. To rally the troops and then fold the flags and go home a day before the final battle shows, in my opinion, a lack of commitment. I think that you and Kristin and Scott had to have a slat of your own and go for elections, if you win you win and if you lose, you lose, then you would have known what the membership wants. You have thought that because that you and some other (me included) think in one way you will talk to the board and the board will see the light, it does not work this way, try to convert a Republican to become a Democrat, what are your chances? I thing that you could achieve anything you wanted but you did not have the will to fight the last battle, which in my opinion you would have won.

Today, we are all used to the current ICS website. Do you remember what we had 10 years ago? NOTHING! It took lots of time and many many hours of hard work that were donated by very few. This change happened because some took it upon themselves and pushed it forward.
I think that ICS is an organisation that is worth fighting for, your threat of departure will weaken it financially and might stop the changes that you want to materialise. Saying that, I think that you have drove the message home and I think that the change will happen, time will tell.

Fly safe

Ben

[Scott Ducey]

Ben, I do appreciate your response, although I do not agree with most of what you say. You indicate...

"I agree with you that Dick had to come back and answer Jeff, but you effectively re-inforced the reason given by board members for their absence from the forum, they say: “Every time we say something we are being attacked, we don’t need it, we are working for the good of the many, we are volunteers and we refused to be treated this way”.
Can you argue with this? I think not."

Yes I can argue it. If you want to be a decision maker you need to prepared to debate your ideas and have them challenged. Any competent person would understand and be comfortable with this concept. The board is willing to do work, fly all over the country for board meetings, communicate with other board members, HOWEVER they just don't want to go on the forum because of the flack they will hear? It doesn't cost a dime. As far as your international phone calls and other items, I do not think just because of all the work you do means you have a built in excuse not to communicate with members and have your ideas challenged. And Ben, lets be honest with each other, the real reason they do not wade in the forums is because they really don't have a position that is defensible. Responses we received at the spring board meeting were these overly broad comments like "you don't understand", "that would never work". The truth is we were asked to outline our proposal, and explain a means to finance it. You know what, we did just that, and left the plan open for modification to allow those people that want a magazine to have a magazine in one way or the other. The bogus exercise of the Young Persons Advisory Committee was a very disingenuous exercise by our VP. He did not present the facts, or convey the message of those that were polled from that group. Ben I suggest you read the individual reports by the groups, and see if you still think my tone is warranted.

So when you say "two wrongs don't make a good", kindly explain how what I say is wrong? I was asked to provide my input on the issue. I flew down to FL to provide my input on a topic which I thought was important. unfortunately while I spent considerable time putting together my presentation, others spent time agreeing that they would not listen. Ben, I think Pat Keefer had a great idea. In this technological world we live in I would suggest you post the audio on the forum of the SBM. The members can hear for themselves the compelling argument that our VP and others made. They can hear for themselves the great testimony and intellect behind the decisions being made. They can hear the compelling arguments that were made by the Board that spending all this money on a magazine makes so much sense. They can see how argumentative the board can be and how the VP will just sit there and interrupt people while they speak.

As far as your commentary on change, please Ben, how long are we going to listen to the same thing? "Change takes time, it is happening, it doesn't happen overnight". As long as I have been a member of ICS I have heard this. YOu know what has changed? Nothing. Anything that is being done on the type support front is largely by individual members, not ICS.

I know you and others want to continue to bring up, 'just run for something' and you can manage ICS. Well I was willing to be the treasurer. However, I was asked not to be the treasurer after Don and Dick heard that have different ideas then them. They want to once again waste big dollars on a magazine, and my god, did you see it this month? Advertisements, advertisements, advertisements.

I know a number of people like to point to the work that has been done on the ICS website and tout it as a great accomplishment. It is. But that is done. Should we just stop moving forward because of it. Should the aviation world stop evolving because we have conquered the air?

Ben, I will get off my soap box soon enough, and assure you i will move on in the near future, but i like to think through all of this i have been a gentleman. i have not called people names or ridiculed the board. i have not lied. what i have done is spoken the truth about the board, and have affirmed what others have said to me long ago - the board will not, nor is interested in change whatsoever. they want to sit back, take in membership dues and publish a magazine. its easy. it doest require much work or thought. while the rest of the world has moved on to automobiles, ICS want to stay with the horse and buggy....and offers no compelling explanation for their decision. i guess we all just don't understand... [/u][/quote]

[Tim Winters]

[Stephen Flaherty]

[Zach Grant L1011jock]