2009 ICS FBM Minutes & Tech Coord Presentation

by **David Pyle** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:23 pm

A.H. and all interested,

FBM constituted the Fleet Airworthiness Steering Committee (FASC) chaired by Kristin Winter. That group is charged with bringing an ICS type support recommendation to the Spring Board Meeting. I personally believe that everyone has a stake in this, and that suggestions/ideas for the plan should be part of this forum. Discussion here would also enable board members to participate, hopefully winning support for the cause.

by **Chris Kuyoth** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:40 am

It is encouraging to see that the BOD approved Kristin's request to form a committee to study the fleet airworthiness issues confronting us. I believe deeply that fleet airworthiness should be the #1 priority within the ICS. I have been told by my Tribe Chief that it is a "high" priority among the ICS leadership, but I wonder.

The BOD's initiated a discussion to form a new committee to assist hosting tribes for the annual convention, yet it took Kristin to introduce the notion of a FASC from outside the leadership ranks??? Time and again, it seems clear that ICS marches to a mostly social drum beat.

In addition, I observed the minutes regarding the "Younger Member Advisory Council". Taking the liberty to comment on behalf of the "younger members" (I bought my first Comanche at 32 and am now 43), it is airworthiness support that we are seeking first and foremost.

Sincerely,

Chris

by **David Pyle** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:14 am

Chris,

Your observations are well taken. Running a new convention is reinventing the wheel. Participation has become limited. There is as much technical as social at today's conventions. Wives do have a say about our airplanes.

I hope more will comment and make suggestions to FASC. The issue is not leadership interest, but affordability. And there are big organizational issues. I agree that some of the new "member recognition" suggestions skirt the basic issues. Suggest you write your elected official(s) about that. Unlikely they will see it here.

by **Chris Kuyoth** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:59 pm

Dave,

I understand the need/desire to keep a social element within ICS. We have been conducting conventions for a lot of years. Do we need to dedicate additional resources to planning conventions when we have so many airworthiness/part shortage issues to deal with? I know that it is a volunteer committee, but it is still resources none-the-less.

You state that is unlikely that member comments will be heard in this forum. Why is that? Is this not the "official" forum of the ICS? Am I not posting in the BOD section? I think that this forum could be a fantastic tool to generate good discussion toward the betterment of the organization. BOD participation would be required however.

If ICS wants to better understand the desires of the membership at large, lets make it easier for the members to be heard.

Sincerely & Respectively,

Chris

by **jeffrey aryan** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:07 pm

I concur with Chris.

Jeff Aryan

by **Scott Ducey** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:39 am

Chris, in the short time that I have been here it seems to me there are a small number of people at ICS doing a lot of work. Having said this, I believe on one of the drop down menu's there is a presentation that Kristin Winter put together regarding technical support. She had some concrete ideas, attended a board meeting, pitched her idea, and the board approved the project to move forward. My point is that I believe that the board recognizes the need you speak of. I also think a lot of work has gone into technical issues, undoubtedly there are more that need to be addressed, but I attended a very informative seminar in Rialto, CA regarding the torque tube horns. I think this web site has instructions on how your mechanic can inspect the horn. As you note below this is all volunteer organization, but you or any ICS member is welcome to attend / participate in board meetings to pitch your idea(s) or speak your mind. I believe the first step in executing something is bringing it to your Tribe Chiefs attention. Even if you do not attend a board meeting, if you want to help out, Kristin and others would welcome your assistance in an area that is needed. Thankfully for now we have people like Zach, Hans, Kristin, Dave Fitgerald and others - I think they should be cloned.

Just my two cents.

Scott Ducey

by **Zach Grant L1011jock** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:04 am

Scott,
The place you speak of is the new "Mechanics Corner" under the "technical" tab on the main web page. Look for more useful info to be posted there as we build the library.
-Zach

by **jeffrey aryan** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:21 am

To All,

Not to be the one for doom and gloom.

I feel there are to many different subject forums here and if you want to heard it can very easily be lost and ignored. It would help to reduce that number so all that want to be heard can.

I disagree that one should go thru there Tribe Chief about a certain subject. We all have differences' of opinions' and concerns. Some are more important to one person than others. This why I disagree one should go thru the Tribe Chief. We all have one vote during elections.

Thank You,

Jeff Aryan

by **Zach Grant L1011jock** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:44 am

Jeff,
True, you have one vote during elections, for your tribe chief/rep and the Society officers (unless of course you live in Chicago...vote early, and vote often). After that, your tribe rep has one vote at the table. Sure you can throw the bum out once a year with your vote, but unless you go through the proper channels, you will not have a voice regardless how indirect. As for attending a board meeting, certainly, but if you want something on the agenda, you still have to go through a BOD member. Thats how it works. Now with that said, if you want to just actually DO something for the good of all, just do it. People will take notice and applaud you if they like it, or shoot flaming arrows followed by hot oil, tar and feathers if they don't. There is no central high command for members to work their own projects, but there is certainly an organizational structure that is based on that of a republican nature (not referring to a political party here, but of a type of governing) for running the business aspects as well as making decisions that affect the bottom line. If you want a direct vote in all issues ICS, get voted in as your tribe rep.
-Zach

by **David Pyle** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:33 pm

Zach,

Jeff has a point. Many of the tribe "elections" are really just appointments. In some tribes like Northwest no one has come forward. This happens a lot, your experience notwithstanding.

Contacting a tribe chief/rep a member may not know that person. (Some members don't know what tribe they belong to.) Access to "management" and the board IMO is better served by writing or calling those you know.

An earlier point was made about the the directors not participating at this site. That's what the BOD public discussion was set up for and it has never worked as an information exchange between officers and board or to provide member access to the board.

And, yes, I understand the limitations you cite. We need to be a more open society. Communication goes a long way to create understanding and a coherent membership.

by **Chris Kuyoth** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:12 am

Scott,

As I said in my first post, I am encouraged in that the ICS BOD did approve Kristin's committee to investigate a larger ICS role in fleet airworthiness. It certainly is a step in the right direction.

I agree that there is a tremendous amount of work taken on by the volunteers of ICS. My sincere thanks to all. I hope to serve in an official capacity in the future, but for now, I get involved to the extent that I can. I always try to keep it constructive and respectfull to the volunteers.

My original concern was the discussion at the FBM for an additional committee to work on future annual conventions. It was not my idea to add to the workload of the volunteers. I was merely suggesting that any incremental (or current) resources directed by the BOD may be better expended toward fleet airworthiness issues. In my mind, (and the minds of every other Comanche owner that I know), the #1 issue facing Comanches is fleet airworthiness, specifically part shortages. How about a new committee to engage Piper to start selling landing gear transmissions again?

While I do not wish to down-play the significance of the Rialto seminar that you attended, I am speaking of airworthiness support well beyond what you witnessed. We've had this conversation at COF before. Based on my communications with Kristin, I believe her presentation/committee is also aimed at achieving a greater level of type support. The real work leading up to Rialto was conducted by Hans Neubert in root-causing the horn cracking (data gathering, modelling, finite element analysis, research, meetings with the FAA). Work is still needed to determine a definitive corrective action - e.g. getting someone to make new horns. While we were all extremely fortunate that Hans took on this project pro bono, and that he possesses the knowledge, skills and credentials to do it, who is to say Hans won't sell his Twinco tomorrow and step down to a Baron, leaving ICS?

Why does someone have to attend a board meeting to be heard? It is 2010 (Happy New Year BTW). We have the internet now and an official ICS website. ICS funds were spent to create the website, let's use it to its fullest potential.

Chris

by **Scott Ducey** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:18 am

Jeff / Dave - I would respectfully say that some ICS members have ideas about what they would like to see change. Unfortunately that is where it ends, and they would like someone else to do the work. This is a thinly spread volunteer organization. If you feel passionate about something specific, step up to the plate, talk to your Tribe Chief, attend a board meeting and get the ball rolling. Demonstrate that you care enough about an issue that you will dedicate your time to it. It is my understanding that being on the ICS board is a full time job. I know that was / is the case for Dave Fitzgerald. If you were in his shoes would you take someone serious if all they did was post something that basically says "you are doing it wrong"? I suspect you will have a better chance of being heard if you offered to help with your idea.

I feel strongly about these airplanes two. And while I do not have the skills that people like Zach and Kristin do, I have offered to do something - I am the NE Tribe Scribe, I flew all the way to CA to take photographs of the Horn Seminar, I offered to host the CPPP, amongst other things. Believe me, my contributions are NOTHING compared to others.

But if all we are going to do is sit back, point fingers on the forum, you will not be heard. And the only thing that will happen is the very thing you are looking to change, the Board will resist because of the tenor of some of these posts.

But that is just my opinion.

Scott Ducey