Twin Comanche Insurance and the Landing Gear

[Fearless Tower]

I'm looking into the possibility of puchasing a Twin Comanche (got my multi in one and have about 17 hrs in it) and have a question about insurance. From browsing the forums, it sounds like most insurance policies on the Twinkie have stipulations and/or steep deductibles regarding landing gear accidents.

Can someone provide a little more detail on that issue? Do the stipulations only affect gear up accidents where the pilot forgets to put the gear down, or do they involve all gear accidents. Looking through NTSB records, I've noticed alot of PA30 accidents where the pilot remembered to put the gear down, but the gear failed to lock in place.

Thanks!

Andrew

[Scott Ducey]

I moved from a PA-28 (Archer) to a PA-30 (Twin Comanche). And speaking just for my own experience, the first year for insurance normally hurts. I was a new twin pilot, with no twin time, specifically Twin Comanche time. I believe my first year premium was almost $5K. It had a standard policy deductible, however for a gear up landing, it had a $10K deductible. As far as what you reference in the reports, i.e. that the gear handle is down - I hear that one of the first things pilots do after a gear up landing is put the gear handle in the down position after they crash.

I would suggest using an agent in looking for a carrier - this way they can comb a bunch of different carriers to find the right policy for you. In terms of your question about how the policy applies, I would make sure you carefully read the policy and talk to your agent to get clarity. I suspect it is something that varies from carrier to carrier.

My second year premium was $3,800. The key is to build time, and you should see that premium come down.

I hope this helps.

Scott

[Kristin Winter]

Andrew,

Good choice of plane, if I do say so myself.

As to insurance, get a broker who knows the market. The first year will hurt, as Scott said, but the next gets much better. Not all insurers have a higher deductible for gear accidents. I don't believe it makes whether it is a gear up or a gear collapse.

A well-known shop in SoCal who repair a lot of Comanches that have been on their belly, estimates that half are collapses. That highlights the need for proper maintenance.

When buying a Comanche, a pre-purchase inspection done by a knowledgeable Comanche mechanic is a must. Don't take the mechanic's word for it that they are knowledgeable. There are mechanics out there who will rightly claim that they have worked on Comanches for years. They have just been doing it wrong for years.

[David Pyle]

Fearless,

Perhaps you know this, but an agent or broker can not shop for you without the details of your pilot experience and the N# of the airplane you want to insure. All else is hearsay, but the advice of people here and at Delphi can direct you to agent/brokers with whom they have favorable experience.

There are still many, many Twin Comanches for sale so apply your criteria and narrow your search to those that qualify. Quality and price are generally related. If I can help let me know. Dave Pyle dap8@comcast.net

[Scott Ducey]

If you find an airplane to purchase, I would strongly suggest you post something on this web site to identify a mechanic that can assist you with your due diligence. The key here is to get someone with technical skill that knows the airplane, not someone that may contact you just to offer help. Good luck with your purchase.

Scott Ducey

[David Pyle]

Scott,

Here we go again. In order to address due diligence technical issues one first has to find an airplane. All I do is try to help start that process...for those serious and those who are just shopping. No cost. No obligation. Just the holiday spirit.

Dave Pyle ICS 730

[Scott Ducey]

All I can speak of is my own personal experience, and I can say with absolute certainty, you are not one that should be helping. The work that you do can be done by an individual buyer by looking on the internet, looking in the trades. Once you find a girl you want to take to the dance, you then turn to people with the mechanical / technical skills - those like Kristin, Zach, Hans and others. That is where the value is. As I said, in my own personal experience, you were of no help and it became quite clear very early that your advice is not very good. I know you like to toute that you do this work out of the goodness of your heart and don't charge people, but the truth is, when you dealt with me, you asked for money. You don't cite a specific dollar amount, but I recall you saying that you were tired of receiving fruit baskets for your efforts. I can't speak for others in this regard, but that was mine.

[David Pyle]

Scott doesn't like me. So I'm going out to the garden and eat worms.

[Kristin Winter]

I am sure that others have found Dave's services of some value, but I do recommend caution. I know of one instance were he substituted his assessment of an aircraft, having never seen it, for mine, when I had actually seen the aircraft and looked at the logs. I offered to talk to the prospective purchaser, but Dave apparently never passed that on to the buyer. I hope it works out for the new owner.

[David Pyle]

Kristin,

It did. The seller told me you did not actually look at the airplane only the log books, and then only questioned the quality of the engine overhaul. I put the subsequent buyer in touch with the original overhauler, and those who did a later tear down following a prop strike.

The prospect that you talked out of that $52K Comanche just paid $99K for one. It also had a recent gear up. Zach did the prebuy. Seller was very pleased to get his asking price.

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

Dave,
I don't know if you have all of the information, and I really don't care if you do and it is accurate. Many people mistake price for value. Usually, price has very little to do with value. I don't get involved in the negotiations, I just issue opinions and when an aircraft comes along that is such that it will be a reliable and useful aircraft out of the box, I say so. If one is simply an old whore in a new dress, I say so also. Not often do you come upon an aircraft with all of the requirements of the buyer, and is such that the airplane will not need much except the owners investment in his preferences, without paying for stuff he doesn't want. When that airplane comes along, you are stupid to not buy it. There are many $50K airplanes out there. Some are OK values if you want that airplane, and some do (50K value airplanes are well maintained recent engine overhauls, OK P&I and light radios, nothing fancy). If you want an airplane with new paint, new interior, new prop, start adding it up. That is at least 40K for quality stuff. Now that 50K airplane is the same value as the 90K airplane! The oposite is also true. Say a 90K airplane has a new aspen and a century autopilot installed, but the owner wants a G500 and an Stec. Why would you pay for that twice? That would not be a very good value now would it?

I have owned or been partners/operator in 18 airplanes over the years. I have been sucessful at being ahead of the game on 4 aircraft. 2 were such that no investment was necessary other than planned upgrades. I always knew what I had, and planned accordingly. The 2 that cost me the least, were the best values, AND the ones that I paid the most for initially (regarding purchase price vs. market average).
It certainly is a big picture thing, and that escapes many people.
-Zach

[Scott Ducey]

Thanks Zach. I have only had experience with three, and do not have your experience and background. Once I found something that interests me, I do a reality check on VRef and/or Blue Book. This is a simple means to determine if the numbers make sense. If they do, the real work begins by hiring someone like yourself or Kristin. From there, based on findings you determine if a price adjustment is required. Given the fact that our airplanes are at least 40 years old, all the more reason to go through all the steps carefully. I do not see the value of having another person added to that formula without some kind of technical background, but hey that is me.

[Kristin Winter]

Dave,

As Zach alluded to, price does not equal value. I am glad the seller was happy to get his price. The buyer was happy to get the plane. Those are the kinds of deals that I like. I also do not get involved in the negotiations, unless specifically asked to do that. I examine and offer my opinions -- not just on how the aircraft looks on that day, but what is likely to be an expensive problem in the future.

The aircraft in question had had a service limits overhaul with a crank that was already ground down as far was was allowable, meaning that at next overhaul, the crank is likely to become a mailbox post.

I also spoke with the shop that did the recent IRAN inspection, so I knew what they had done, and what they had not done. They offered to make the IRAN into a full overhaul to new limits, but the owner didn't want to pay for that.

Putting a prospective owner "in touch" with the shop is very little assistance, as he did not likely know the questions to ask. If you did not outright tell the owner that the engine was fine, you apparently gave him that impression. It probably was fine, for a limited amount of time. Then the bill are likely to come.

As priced, given the likely future costs, the aircraft was not a good value, and the prospective buyer I was assisting come to that determination.

When it comes to buying 40 year old airplanes, patience is a virtue.

[Jay]

Andrew:

So, do you feel like the guy that went into a restaurant to ask directions and found himself in the middle of a food fight?

To get back to your original post, as Kristin says there is evidence that 50% of the Comanche gear incidents are due to collapse and 50% are due to the pilot forgetting to move the little switch down.

Comanche gear is subject to an AD that requires detailed inspection and replacement of worn parts (mainly bushings) every 1,000 hours. I believe that most of the collapse incidents are caused that that inspection not being properly performed and the gear not being properly maintained. As you know, even though an IA signs off on maintenance it is the owner's responsibility. So to me, gear collapses are 99% avoidable if the owner maintains the aircraft properly and remembers to put the gear down.

Find the Twinkie you want, then have a knowledgeable shop check the gear very carefully, if not perform the actual AD, as part of your pre-buy process. There are several folks on this forum that can direct you to a good shop, either in your area or near the Twinky you find.

There is one insurance company, Avemco, that goes direct to owners, you can get a quote from them on line. The other insurance companies all work through brokers. Pick a broker you want to work with and cross check with Avemco.

Good luck,

Jay

[David Pyle]

Andrew,

I started this commotion when as part of my insurance observation I added "If I can help let me know". If you could stand to read what followed you know that I have a really bad reputation for "helping" sellers and buyers. Actually I understand both as well as being "in the market" almost every day. I might add that Comanches are not my only interest, (I've owned all but a 400), but with the other types I get a modicum of respect.

So I repeat..if I can help you let me know.