Offer Price 69 PA-30C Turbo

[John Wasserburger]

I am new to this site and looking to purchase a Twin Commanche. What would be a good price to offer for a 69 PA-30C Turbo that has 4400TT, 700/1300 SMOH; 800 SPOH, It has tip tanks, speed Mods, HSI, IFR Loran Altimatic IIIB, Shadin Fuel Flow, Dual KX-155's. The airplane is a 7 exterior and an 8 interior. Can a guy get a good deal with the economy in its present state? Thanks for the help!

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

John,
Yes, in todays market there is the potential for a good deal, as well as a bad deal. Beware the bargain! On a turbo twinco there are many thingd to look out for that are not apparent in the basic spec numbers. The overal condition of the landing gear, the wiring, the heater, the props, the exhaust, the turbo system, the oxygen system, the radios, the electrical system, the accessories, and last but not least the engines themselves, all can make for an expensive bargain. Paint and interior are relatively cheap in comparison. A first rate, no effort spared paint job is about 22K, and an all out interior is about 18K, with 5-7K more common. Engines, about 50K easy, props, about 19K, heater, about 2-4K depending, gear about 6K, accessories, about 5K, radios ...how much do you want to spend, electrical system upgrades, 3K, fuel system upgrades, 3K, hose AD, 2.5K. Lets add it up. 50+19+3+6+5+3+3+2.5=91.5K, and that doesn't include paint, interior, or radios. Now if you bought this plane for a bargain price of 65K...you get my drift. A very well maintained airplane for 120K would be a much better bargain in this case! I don't know the airplane you are looking at, and it may be an absoulute cream puff, but buyer beware! Make sure you get a Comanche expert to give it a very good look before you buy! I do not want you to be alarmed with these numbers. I am pointing out what others have learned the hard way. Hopefully you will find an airplane that all of this has been taken care of for you. Twincos of any variety are great airplanes. Good luck in your search, and if you have any questions, feel free to give me a call 317.201.4293 (Eastern Time) cell.
-Zach

[John Wasserburger]

Zack, thanks for the detailed answer...I appreciate your help!!

John W.

[John Wasserburger]

Does anyone know any Twin Comanche experts in Wisconsin?

[Zach Grant L1011jock]

John,
I would contact Cliff Willewski in Rockford IL, or Bill Wenkman in the Dells. Either of these gents would do a good job of looking over an airplane for the hidden gotchas!
-Zach

[steen]

Nick Quint at JVL has done my annuals for 15 years...PA-30B....and I would consider him a thorough and competent IA on the type. He owns/operates Blackhawk Aircraft Maintenance at Janesville, Wi.

[Kristin Winter]

I would also point out that a turbo is not a bargain unless you need the turbo. The additional cost will be noticeable and at lower altitudes does not perform as well as a normally aspirated Twinkie.

[John Wasserburger]

Thanks for all the wisdom...I appreciate all the input! This will be the first aircraft that I have purchased.

John

[Scott Ducey]

For what it is worth, I purchased a twinkie about 5 months ago (non turbo). While my mechanic was a Comanche guy, I still found at annual there were a number of things that needed attention. My first annual was over $15K!!! Get a good mechanic, be patient, and know what you are looking for. Educate yourself about buying a plane, particularly this kind of plane. This aint no Piper Archer or Cessna 172. Unless you need a turbo, I would encourage a normally aspirated twinkie. Good luck, you picked a great plane to buy!!

[N3322G]

FYI. I saw this posting and thought of your efforts.

If I wanted a twin comanche this would be the one that I would buy. Assuming this is/was Vondell Plunkett's airplane. The last time I saw it was right after he put in the 530/430/HSI/Panel combo.

Harley

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1964-Pip ... 06.c0.m245


The next post said it was Plunkett's plane. I don't personally know this Twin but am very happy with my 39 counterrotated Twin that I am the second generation to own. See http://www.comancheflyer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4964 for the recent paint job blog

Pat Keefer ICS 08899

[John Wasserburger]

I am noticing in my quest to purchase a twin comanche that several sellers are claiming NDH and their aircraft logs indicate as such; however, when I input the tail number into the NTSB database some of the supposed aircraft with NDH have actually been in accidents. First of all, is this a legal practice to have a crash and no documentation of repairs? Secondly, how much should this have an effect on the valuation of the aircraft? Would other owners out there buy an airplane with this type of documentation?

John W.

[ics-12766]

"...Would other owners out there buy an airplane with this type of documentation? ..."

JMHO, John, no. Unless the mix-up can be straightened out. It's a "buyer's market".

I've purchased a Comanche with damage history. Well documented repairs, in logs and work orders. Everything disclosed, out in the open.

[Kristin Winter]

John,

Good job in having the foresight to check the NTSB website. It is not legal to make repairs without a record entry. However, it happens. When you narrow it down to an aircraft that you are interested in, have a records search performed at FAA to pull up all the 337's on the aircraft.

Unrecorded damage history is a big red flag. Perhaps not an entire deal breaker, but close. Everything else would have to be right, including the price, to consider it. Generally not worth putting the money into a pre-buy inspection. Without a pre-buy, don't even think about it. And don't even think about letting the seller's mechanic do an annual as a substitute.

Many think that an annual is the best kind of pre-buy. I disagree. The annual is designed to determine if the aircraft meets the minimum standard for airworthiness. It tells you nothing about that is going to need to be replaced in the next year or so, and tells you nothing about how the avionics are working. It doesn't give you any other information that can inform the purchase or the amount that should be offered.

[Scott Ducey]

John, when I bought my plane I subscribed to Aviation Blue Book. It is a little pricey, but I thought worth the cost. They will give you a break down of what the value of the airplane is with or without damage. I believe VRef (which is provided with AOPA membership) also can give you an indication of value. Don't take what either provides as gospel, but both can give you a general sense of what the value is. When I VRef'd my twinkie, the value was $15K higher than their asking price. I asked for an additional $5K off. I think it was a reasonable deal. My general sense in looking at different airplanes is there are a number of shops out there that play fast and loose. It seems that the further you go back in time in the logbooks, the more prevalent this becomes. I don't think its a terrible thing to have damage, it just depends how bad it was and who fixed it, but this gets outside of my area of knowledge. Again, I would stress that regardless of what you do, make sure the guy that is doing the pre-buy is very familiar with Comanche's. One last thing, while damage may or may not be a big factor in value, I generally stay away from an airplane that has missing logbooks. Good luck.

[Scott Ducey]

I have not read the specs, but the pics look amazing. I would consider buying this!!

http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_view ... 6687323701